1
   

We went to war over THIS?

 
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2004 02:45 pm
Quote:
unresolved ambiguity

hardly justifies war
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2004 02:51 pm
Did you read the article or just the highlights that I have posted. There is an interesting section that Powell wrote that answers your question...Please don't rely on my interpretations of an article, please read it thouroughly and base your thoughts on it. That's why I bother making a link.
0 Replies
 
Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2004 03:45 pm
Mc Gentrix you obviously have not read the interview with Kay published in today's New York Times
1/26/04

Here are four excerpts, the 2nd, 3rd and 4th paragraphs are direct quotes from Kay. The link to the full articles is below.

Ex-Inspector Says C.I.A. Missed Disarray in Iraqi Arms Program
By JAMES RISEN

Dr. Kay said the fundamental errors in prewar intelligence assessments were so grave that he would recommend that the Central Intelligence Agency and other organizations overhaul their intelligence collection and analytical efforts.

Dr. Kay said analysts had come to him, "almost in tears, saying they felt so badly that we weren't finding what they had thought we were going to find ?- I have had analysts apologizing for reaching the conclusions that they did."

"I'm personally convinced that there were not large stockpiles of newly produced weapons of mass destruction," Dr. Kay said. "We don't find the people, the documents or the physical plants that you would expect to find if the production was going on".

"I think they gradually reduced stockpiles throughout the 1990's. Somewhere in the mid-1990's, the large chemical overhang of existing stockpiles was eliminated."

But Dr. Kay said the C.I.A. missed the significance of the chaos in the leadership and had no idea how badly that chaos had corrupted Iraq's weapons capabilities or the threat it raised of loose scientific knowledge being handed over to terrorists. "The system became so corrupt, and we missed that," he said.

Dr. Kay said there was also no conclusive evidence that Iraq had moved any unconventional weapons to Syria, as some Bush administration officials have suggested. He said there had been persistent reports from Iraqis saying they or someone they knew had see cargo being moved across the border, but there is no proof that such movements involved weapons materials.

Link to Times article
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2004 03:53 pm
So, Kay is either a liar, or doesn't have his own facts straight as the times article contradicts what Kay is quoted to have said to "The Sunday Telegraph" of London.

If only Saddam had let the inspectors do this job before the war, the whole issue could have been avoided.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2004 03:57 pm
McGentrix wrote:
So, Kay is either a liar, or doesn't have his own facts straight as the times article contradicts what Kay is quoted to have said to "The Sunday Telegraph" of London.

If only Saddam had let the inspectors do this job before the war, the whole issue could have been avoided.



They were doing the job, McG.

The moron in chief would have none of it -- remember????
0 Replies
 
Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2004 04:36 pm
McGentrix wrote:
If only Saddam had let the inspectors do this job before the war, the whole issue could have been avoided.



Didn't let the inspectors do their job? Not according to Kay

NYT 1/26/04

He said it now appeared that Iraq had abandoned the production of illicit weapons and largely eliminated its stockpiles in the 1990's in large part because of Baghdad's concerns about the United Nations weapons inspection process. He said Iraqi scientists and documents show that Baghdad was far more concerned about United Nations inspections than Washington had ever realized.

"The Iraqis say that they believed that Unscom was more effective, and they didn't want to get caught," Dr. Kay said, using an acronym for the inspection program, the United Nations Special Commission.

Link to Times article
0 Replies
 
Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2004 04:50 pm
Besides, McG, Bush et al don't bother using WMDs as the rationale for the war anymore. Now it's "Saddam was a threat (of some sort) to the US and had to go."

It's all very simple when you view the world the George Bush way!
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2004 04:57 pm
"Evil chemistry and evil biology": that's exactly what I thought sometimes ages back at school :wink:

Quote:
Ashcroft defends war on Iraq[/size]
In wake of Kay's WMD dissent, he says Saddam used ?'evil chemistry'
MSNBC staff and news service reports
Updated: 1:28 p.m. ET Jan. 26, 2004
VIENNA, Austria - In the wake of remarks by outgoing weapons inspector David Kay that he did not believe Iraq had outlawed weapons of mass destruction, Attorney General John Ashcroft strongly defended the war that toppled Saddam Hussein, saying Monday that his past use of "evil chemistry" and "evil biology" justified U.S. actions.

Ashcroft, who was in Vienna for talks with top Austrian officials on measures to fight terrorism and drug trafficking and improve air travel security, told reporters that Saddam's arsenal remained a menace and was sufficient cause to overthrow his regime.

"Weapons of mass destruction including evil chemistry and evil biology are all matters of great concern, not only to the United States but also to the world community. They were the subject of U.N. resolutions," he said.

Al-Qaida threat not seen as diminished
Ashcroft called terrorism "the antithesis of freedom" and said it remained a global menace. "We see no nations as immune to the al-Qaida terrorist threat," he said.

He addressed reporters briefly after meeting with Chancellor Wolfgang Schuessel, Interior Minister Ernst Strasser and Justice Minister Dieter Boehmdorfer. On Tuesday, he was to meet with members of Austria's elite Cobra police commando unit, which has had members acting as sky marshals on select flights.

Ashcroft made the comments a day after Kay, the outgoing top U.S. weapons inspector, pressed U.S. intelligence agencies to explain why their research indicated that Iraq had banned weapons before the invasion.

Kay said Sunday that he now believed Saddam had no such arms.

"I don't think they exist," Kay said on National Public Radio. "The fact that we found so far the weapons do not exist ?- we've got to deal with that difference and understand why."

Scientists may have diverted money
Kay told The New York Times in an interview for Monday's editions that U.S. intelligence agencies did not realize that Iraqi scientists presented Saddam with fanciful plans for weapons programs and then used the money he authorized for other purposes.

"The whole thing shifted from directed programs to a corrupted process," Kay told the Times. "The regime was no longer in control; it was like a death spiral. Saddam was self-directing projects that were not vetted by anyone else. The scientists were able to fake programs."

Kay said that Iraq did try to restart its nuclear weapons program in 2000 and 2001 but that evidence suggested that it would have taken years to rebuild after being largely abandoned in the 1990s.

He said that it was now clear that the CIA's basic problem was that the agency lacked its own spies in Iraq who could provide credible information but that he did not believe analysts were pressed by the administration to make their reports conform to a White House agenda.

The White House said Monday that inspectors should continue searching to determine the extent of Saddam's programs. But White House press secretary Scott McClellan did not repeat past administration statements that forbidden weapons would be found.

"We want to compare the intelligence before the war with what the Iraq Survey Group learns on the ground," McClellan said, who was traveling with President Bush to a speech in Little Rock, Ark.

Cheney in Italy
Although the White House has insisted that illicit weapons eventually will be found in Iraq, Vice President Dick Cheney and Secretary of State Colin Powell recently held open the possibility that they would not.

Cheney, on a visit to Italy to thank that nation for its help in Iraq, did not mention Kay's remarks Monday in a speech to 200 government and business leaders and university students in which he urged all free nations to fight the spread of the world's most dangerous weapons.

"In all of our actions, the world's democracies must send an unmistakable message: that the pursuit of weapons of mass destruction only invites isolation and carries with it great costs," Cheney said. "Leaders who abandon the pursuit of those weapons will find an open path to far better relations with governments around the world."

Powell, in a futile bid for U.N. support for war, told the Security Council last Feb. 5 that Iraq was making prohibited arms, with a "conservative estimate" of 100 to 500 tons of chemical weapons on hand.

By this weekend, however, he had added two words, wondering aloud to reporters during a flight to Tblisi, Georgia: "What was it? One hundred tons, 500 tons or zero tons?"

But Powell said last week that while questions remained about the weapons, Saddam's intention to acquire them was not clouded.

"What he had in the way of programs to generate an inventory and what he had in the way of intentions is absolutely clear," Powell said without elaborating.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

SOURCE
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2004 05:21 pm
Perhaps putting this in a dialogue format will help to explain the administration's logic:

Bush: Saddam was an imminent threat to the U.S. That's why we had to invade.
US: Why was he an imminent threat?
B: Because he had weapons of mass destruction.
US: That's clearly not true. Even your own weapons inspector now says that there were no WMDs.
B: But Saddam had weapons programs.
US: He didn't even have those: Kay said so.
B: Well, he had programs-related activities.
US: What are those?
B: I have no clue, but they could have been sold or given to Al Qaida.
US: Saddam had no ties to Al Qaida. Your own administration has admitted as much.
B: I didn't say "Al Qaida;" that's revisionist history! I said "terrorists." And those terrorists were directly threatening the US.
US: With weapons of mass destruction program-related activities?
B: That's right. So we had to invade Iraq right away.
US: To stop him from killing Americans with "program-related activities"?
B: No, stupid, to keep him from killing his own people!
US: How was that an imminent threat to Americans?
B: Have you no compassion? Would you prefer to have Saddam still in power, killing his people by the hundreds?
US: As opposed to Iraqis killing off Americans in one and twos?
B: That's why we had to invade right away, to save the Iraqis.
US: I don't recall the Iraqis asking us to invade.
B: Of course not. We had a mandate from the international community.
US: The international community?
B: Yes, Saddam was defying several UN mandates, and that destabilized the entire region.
US: So we invaded in defiance of the UN to enforce its mandates?
B: And to keep weapons of mass destruction out of the hands of Al Qaida.
US: What weapons of mass destruction?
B: I told you: the weapons of mass destruction that Saddam had aimed at every taxpaying mother and child in the United States.
US: But he didn't have any WMDs. Even your own weapons inspector now says that there were no WMDs....

Repeat ad infinitum, ad nauseum
0 Replies
 
Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2004 05:26 pm
Ashcroft is the Bush Administration's Frankenstein monster. Except he's real. "Evil chemistry" and "evil biology"? Oh, brother...
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2004 07:11 pm
Looks like the humanitarian argument is in the trash:

Quote:
It would be wrong to describe the US and British invasion of Iraq last March as a "humanitarian intervention," Human Rights Watchsaid in its annual report.

"The Bush administration cannot justify the war in Iraq as a humanitarian intervention, and neither can (British Prime Minister) Tony Blair," the group's executive director Kenneth Roth said Monday.

"Saddam Hussein's atrocities should certainly be punished, and his worst atrocities, such as the 1988 genocide against the Kurds, would have justified humanitarian intervention then," said Roth in the report's keynote essay.

"But such interventions should be reserved for stopping an imminent or ongoing slaughter. They shouldn't be used belatedly, to address atrocities that were ignored in the past."


U.K. AFP via Yahoo!
0 Replies
 
Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2004 07:41 pm
Saddam's atrocities were and on going feature of his regime, and as David Kay notes in his Times interview the regime was spinning out of control. I don't think Human Rights Watch should be in the business of establishing levels of acceptable atrocities. If Bush had any morally justifiable reason for invading Iraq it was a humanitarian one. But humanitarian concerns as a basis for a foreign policy was something he and his neocon cohorts consistently distained.
0 Replies
 
pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Jan, 2004 09:12 pm
Morals, ethics?
The Neo Fascists scoff at these words in their deeds.
Reagan, Bush 1, Rummy didn't have any qualms about dealing with Saddam.

This cover-up is getting to almost humorous, if it were not so freakin' pathetic. Now it's the CIA's fault. What a crock of sheeit!!!
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2004 03:06 am
I've been listening to BBC reports of your New Hampshire primaries. Sounds like the democrats are on a roll. Up till now I gave them no chance. Resigned to 4 more years of Mr Bush strutting his stuff.

But I learn 35 million Americans live in poverty. In the worlds richest, most powerful most aggressive most debt ridden country...that's enough reason for America's sake.

Now please listen for one moment. I dont have a vote in November. So I'm asking you, no pleading with you for my sake no ordering you GET RID OF THIS ADMINISTRATION, or Pistof and I will be seriously Evil or Very Mad
0 Replies
 
pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2004 04:19 am
35 Million In Poverty
3 Million unemployed and thousands of bankruptcies. Most American don't care about the poor or the Working Poor. They might be worried about their own jobs, though.

All it will take is one strike from Al Q. and elections will be indefinetly postponed, marital law declared.

If the Neo Fascist get another term America will be a 3rd World Dictatorship. Yeah, that woul piss me off!!! Evil or Very Mad
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2004 05:11 am
All it will take is one strike from Al Q. and elections will be indefinetly postponed, marital law declared.


you really believe that?
0 Replies
 
angie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2004 10:35 am
.

I'm thinking you meant "martial" law, not "marital" law,


although .....


.... this administration is attempting to write new MARITAL law as a means of securing the bigot vote, which they percieve to be larger than the fair-minded people vote.

.
0 Replies
 
Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2004 01:16 pm
White males (of which I am one) make up a approximately one third of the electorate and also form a major portion of Bush's electoral base. The macho strut plays well among this group. A lot of Bush's decisions and public pronouncements can be explained in terms of keeping this group happy.
0 Replies
 
angie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2004 02:09 pm
.

Acquink: Do you believe the majority of white males are in favor of denying civil rights to gay people, including the right to marry the person he/she loves?

Being a white male does not necessarily imply having one's masculinity threatened by people with different sexual orientation, does it ?

I guess I believe bigotry comes in all shapes and sizes, and I would noit single out white males at the target of Bush's pandering to bigots.
0 Replies
 
Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2004 02:29 pm
angie wrote:
. Acquink: Do you believe the majority of white males are in favor of denying civil rights to gay people, including the right to marry the person he/she loves? .


If you look at the polls, apparently yes.

I'm in a university environment in the northeast, so I in no way can present myself as an authority on "white males" as a national phenomena. But, if I listen locally (Connecticut) to the chatter about Bush, the flight suit image and the "bring em' on" swagger resonates among the pickup truck crowed.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2026 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.27 seconds on 03/05/2026 at 05:39:04