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The Horror of Hate Crimes

 
 
manored
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 10:01 am
@Arella Mae,
Arella Mae wrote:

I have to admit I'm really surprised you are the only person who has said anything about it. I think I know how you feel. I am still in a state of shock about it. I don't know any other way to explain it. How do children get that way? How can a 17 year old child do such a thing? It's a bit easier to digest when it is adults, though it shouldn't be, but he's a child! I am so grateful I never had children. That may sound horrible but it's the truth. I don't know that I could live through it. I admire anyone that can. This is just so shocking.
I think you are keeping the bar for "children" a bit too high. In my country, at least, there are many "children" aged 14-18 that commit crimes, sometimes even hate crimes, actively seeking to take advantage of the fact that, being minors, they cant be arrested normally.

Arella Mae wrote:

I don't know how many times I hear how much mankind has progressed. Progressed? This is progress? As horrible as what those kids did is, I still feel sorry for them. Someone had to teach them that kind of hatred. Someone showed them that kind of hatred.
Pretty much any period of history previous to this was a state of permanent global war. This is the first time we can have big countries and small countries without the big countries immediatly seeking to attack and conquer the smaller ones.

boomerang wrote:

This is THE thing that scares me. Mo has a couple of friends that make my "danger" alarms clang. I can't quite put my finger on why but it sometimes seems that Mo is a completely different person when he's around them.
Being a completly different person when around friends is normal as far as I know, even for adults.

I think you should speak with him about it.

Arella Mae wrote:

Why do you always sound so devoid of emotion IMO? It's not a science experiment we are talking about here. We are discussing CHILDREN commiting montrous crimes against other human beings.

The possible emotional charge of the thing does not change the fact that is is a phenomenon that abides to know rules and patterns.

And in fact, there is no way to deal with this kind of problem properly without throwing emotion out of the window. Why do you think they never let medics operate their own family, or negotiators negotiate for their own family's release? Because emotion clouds judgment.
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 10:11 am
@manored,
Right, throw emotions out of the window and guess what? You have 17 year old kids that beat up and run down people MERELY BECAUSE THEY ARE BLACK.

That CHILD had absolutely NO feeling for the person he was beating and running over in his truck. If he had feeling for him, at least as another human being, it's a bit more likely he wouldn't have done what he did.

There has to be a balance. You can't be devoid of emotion and think you can understand or change something and you can't be over emotional about it either.
Questioner
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 10:14 am
@Arella Mae,
Arella Mae wrote:

I don't know how many times I hear how much mankind has progressed. Progressed? This is progress? As horrible as what those kids did is, I still feel sorry for them. Someone had to teach them that kind of hatred. Someone showed them that kind of hatred.


This is a tragic story indeed. Watching the video I was filled with anger as well as sickened by it. However I have to agree with earlier posters that there IS progress. It often doesn't seem like it in the aftermath of something so grizzly, but the fact that these kids are being prosecuted at all in Mississippi for this crime shows a very clear line of progress for me.

As for someone showing them that kind of hatred, I just don't know if that's true anymore. Hatred doesn't really need a textbook and a how-to video to be picked up. It can stem from feelings of neglect, from pride, from crushed over-confidence, lack of parenting, over parenting, etc. It's very likely that these kids never got a good understanding of consequences either.

Could be any of those, could be a mix of all of those. Could be something else entirely.

The one introspective point I discovered when watching that video, however, was how badly I wanted to see them hang, and how pissed I got when I read that the death penalty wasn't even on the table.

To me, that reaction is almost scarier than what these kids did.

Sorry, I ramble.

-Q
manored
 
  3  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 10:17 am
@Arella Mae,
Arella Mae wrote:

Right, throw emotions out of the window and guess what? You have 17 year old kids that beat up and run down people MERELY BECAUSE THEY ARE BLACK.

That CHILD had absolutely NO feeling for the person he was beating and running over in his truck. If he had feeling for him, at least as another human being, it's a bit more likely he wouldn't have done what he did.

Nah. He was filled with hatred and acted out on it. He was the complete opposite of a person trying to supress its emotions.
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 10:23 am
@Questioner,
Oh it's so good to see you! I know how you feel. I cried and cried and I was so angry that this happened. I had that thought at first that they'll get theirs too. But, then I thought about that young blonde teen in an adult prison and bits and pieces of "stories" about prisons crossed my mind and then I cried and cried for this young man. Last night I thought abut how frightened he probably is in jail and he's probably asking himself WHY did I do this? He's probably in shock himself! I'm not excusing what he did in any way at all. But he is someone's son and maybe someone's brother. He is a human being.........a child one at that and will have to live with how many lives are damaged horribly because of his actions.

He is another terribly broken person that lashes out at a world thinking that lashing out is perfectly okay. His value system got twisted somewhere, didn't it? Why do we humans (not all, of course) think doing the very same thing we accuse others of doing is the way to fix it?
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 10:24 am
@manored,
I should have said no compassion because, of course, hatred is an emotion. There has to be a balance!
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 10:29 am
@Arella Mae,
Labeling a build in characteristic of humans as evil and getting emotional over it is not helpful in the least in controlling it and limiting the harm it can do.

Society conditioning of young males not to do ‘evil’ IE do harm within the society and yet not over do it to the point that you do still have young warriors types to defend your nation in times of need is a balancing act that every society had deal with through out history.

Teen gangs that fight senseless gang ‘wars’ are driven by the same drives as young marines as they are both very proud of their outfits and their colors and are willing to die for their brothers in arm.

One group is a key to the defense of the society the other is a pain in the neck for law enforcement.

Footnote never never go out partying with a young man who just became a marine as he will consider himself able to outfight a whole bar of rednecks and is eager to prove that fact.


Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 10:42 am
@BillRM,
I see so you explain it away as they are proud of their outfits and colors..............?????????? A pain in the neck for law enforcement?

You seem to always try to justify or totally ignore the fact that it is wrong. That young man that ran over that guy is RESPONSIBLE for what he did. He CHOSE to do wrong. I'm sure Ted Bundy felt killing the women he did was for a good reason too but that doesn't make it any less wrong or evil. Kids in gangs make choices. They know right from wrong.

The act this young man committed was an evil act. I don't see any way around that but you are entitled to your opinion just as is everyone else.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 10:46 am
@Arella Mae,
I am not saying that he should not be punish for his misdeeds however it is not a sin to understand where this kind of actions come from and it is not the devil but from human nature that was not placed in proper check in his case.
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 10:49 am
@BillRM,
What I am saying is, sometimes the only thing that can explain some things that happen (at least to me) is the fact that evil exists. Everyone makes up their own minds to do evil or not.
Questioner
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 10:54 am
@Arella Mae,
Evil is evil regardless of what it's called. To some it's human nature not properly checked, which is entirely accurate. To us it's a clear and present indicator of a fallen world. However it's called, the results of it aren't in doubt.

Ergo the only issue being debated is semantics.
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 11:03 am
@boomerang,
That tragic event happened in jackson mississippi. I cried when I read it. I was alive and aware during the time when the 4 'boys who were killed who were registering blakc voters were slain in the early '60s. This is random totally senseless violence. It scares me more now than ever because at this time is when these London and UK riots are occuring.

I'm not a negative person but it seems like a further breakdown in society is indicated. How can a person NOT think otherwise.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 11:06 am
@Questioner,
Perhaps you are right and there is no need to debate that.
0 Replies
 
manored
 
  2  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 11:18 am
@Arella Mae,
Arella Mae wrote:

I should have said no compassion because, of course, hatred is an emotion. There has to be a balance!
Im not saying we should all be emotionless. In fact, thats not even possible. What am I saying is that the way BillRM is analyzing this is perfectly valid and in fact desirable. we NEED this kind of analysis if we are to have any hopes of preventing similar events from happening in the future. I know it is disturbing for humans to be viewned as animals or machines, but the fact that it is disturbing doesnt change the fact that that is how we behave.

Arella Mae wrote:

What I am saying is, sometimes the only thing that can explain some things that happen (at least to me) is the fact that evil exists. Everyone makes up their own minds to do evil or not.
"Evil" is a simplification, in fact, one of the biggest simplifications possible. If you simply settle for calling something or its cause "evil", you will never understand it and never be able to do anything about it.
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 11:25 am
@manored,
I will agree to disagree with you.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 11:33 am
@Questioner,
Labeling something as evil is all well and good but it is not all that helpful in understanding why it happen and reducing the numbers of times it will occur in the future.

There is nothing wrong with feeling emotions over such crimes either however trying to understand how such an event come to be is not in conflict with feelings emotions also over such senseless acts.

As I write this I am in a highly emotional state waiting to hear from my vet whether I am going to need to end the life of a very beloved cat of mine or if I will be able to enjoy his company for at least a few more years.

My emotional state at least hopefully will not interfere with my understanding the situation and dealing with it in a logical manner.

Logic and emotions are not enemies of each other.
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 11:42 am
@BillRM,
I am so sorry about your cat. It is never easy making the decision to let go of a beloved pet. I have a saying, "it's not how long they live that matters; it's how well they lived." I am sure you will do the right thing.

I didn't mean to make it sound like you don't have emotions, Bill. I know you do. Maybe this is one of those times when I am a bit over emotional so I think you are being under emotional.
0 Replies
 
Questioner
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 11:42 am
@BillRM,
I wasn't saying that it did. I agree with you that the two are bedfellows.

In my mind there is a broad category in which the label 'evil' can fit quite comfortably and then a slimmer category that gets into the nuts and bolts of what a particular act entailed, what events and very real pressure points were applied to drive or spur a person to a particular act.

One is driven by an emotional reaction while the other is of a more analytical nature, as has already been discussed. They aren't mutually exclusive nor should they be in my opinion. This act was evil (or monstrous, or callous, or unsolicited. . . whatever you wish to call it). On that, I think, we can agree. Having said that, I also agree that going to the next step and isolating what spurred it is a must for society to continue.

I'm very sorry to hear about your cat. I've been there, and do not wish that grief on anyone.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 01:18 pm
Evil is a subjective judgment, it does not exist independently of humans. However, for that very reason it is appropriate to apply the term to conscious acts of humans, or to their entire character in the case of any individual with a history of asocial or antisocial behavior.
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  2  
Reply Wed 10 Aug, 2011 01:58 pm
I think what makes this act and the young people who participated in it seem 'evil' is the fact that such racial progress has occurred, that it is fact that society no longer can be seen to condition white people to automatically denigrate or look down on black people.

When lynchings were commonplace and in the sixties when many young black men and civil rights workers met violent ends because of the color of their skin, those crimes and their perpetrators were 'evil' in my opinion, but they weren't particularly isolated or aberrant incidents. One might use the argument (although I wouldn't) that society had conditioned young white people, and particularly men, to look at black people as less than human.
It was legislated that they be treated as less than - separate and unequal.
Why would anyone be surprised when people treated them this way?

That's not the case anymore. This boy and his family can't really point to the rest of society as having taught him that black people are not human beings, not equal to him and deserving of the same rights and considerations that he is.
He came to this conclusion within himself for some reason. Probably because he himself is aberrant and yes, may be 'evil'.
Some people are. I don't feel sorry for him at all. He will reap what he has sown- and so he should.
Maybe he will change in prison - some people do.

My sympathy and condolences go to that poor man who was treated worse than these boys would probably treat a dog - and to his family.
0 Replies
 
 

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