Islam miracles.

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Salaam Alaikum!

I read the book that you were refering to. Pellucid, trenchant and fascinating!

--Ibn

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Salaam Alaikum!


"Simple: he should radiocarbon date to about 2500 years or thereabouts; that's about how long ago the last real prophet died."

As a student of Near Eastern Archaeology, I can only laugh at the above mentioned.

--Ibn

Swolf

So who was the last true prophet who died 2500 years ago?

And how do you know he was true?

Or was it a she?

Bet it wasnt

Steve,

What happened? U didnt answer my last post.

Qkid

I'm getting a little tired of answering your posts in my own way, only to be told that I didn't answer your question.

You ask two questions thus

let us call them a) and b)

a) How can you verify if one who is claiming to be a prophet is really a prophet?

b)What is the criteria for someone claiming to be a prophet?

I have answered these. However, my answers again are as follows

a) It is not possible to verify such a claim, unless prophet is defined as someone who makes prophesies, in which case these can be tested against subsequent events.
b) The only criteria for someone claiming to be a prophet is that they claim to be a prophet.

No doubt these answers will not satisfy, so why don't you give me your answers to your own questions, which was clearly the motivation behind asking them.

It's not like there was one or two last prophets. There were bunches and whole flocks of them.

Originally being a prophet was like being one of the Greek oracles. As in the case of the oracles, prophesy involved a trance state in which the prophet supposedly joined his mind to the spirit realm in order to comprehend what God would have us do. Seeing into the future was a side effect, and not the main intention of the business, presumably because the spirit realm exists outside our notion of time and joining one's mind to that of the spirit realm presumably enabled the person doing it to see as much of the future as the spirit realm sees. In my view, this would involve seeing possibilities and not certainties since seeing the future in certainties would imply predestination which is pretty nearly impossible to believe in.

Likewise certain psychics have been able to know of events occurring in far parts of the world before anybody ever saw or heard of them on television or media, and this does not imply predestination; only a better means of communication.

In our world, however, all such phenomena are so problematical as to be essentially worthless. Jews believe that idolatry, prophesy, and every sort of thing which Jaynes referred to as "bicameral" phenomena died out at the time of Zechariah. Zechariah refers to prophets as "unclean spirits" and advises parents to kill children show any signs of the ability. The reason for this is that the whole business stopped working at some point, presumably in Zechariah's time, and oracles, prophets, idols, diviners, and every sort of thing like that were simply coming in with garbage information, and trying to run cities and countries on garbage info simply was not working.

That last one probably will seem a bit strange to modern readers. In modern times, we think of psychics and mediums, and we assume that they peddle their wares to individuals and that most of the individuals paying for this stuff are white trash or rednecks or some such, and we tend to lump the whole thing of psychic phenomena together with bible-belt religion and stories such as you read in the National Inquirer.

In ancient times, for centuries, entire countries had been run on direction coming from oracles and prophets, and this generally included every sort of significant political decision. This had worked at least as well as our present political system works for centuries and then, at the time of Zechariah more or less, it stopped working.

hi
any pictur can be fabrecuted but the most philosophical objectionis : to use these picturs in order to defend something does not get any water becuase everything can be interpretated (explained) in different meanings
dont forget that the meaning depend on the use of the signs not upon the signs itself

Steve,

Sorry for the delay. Lets get right to the qestions. I say for someone who is making the huge claim that he receives revelation from the Creator, he must bring a proof. There is no other criteria because many people can do them. The criteria for someone claiming to be a prophet is that he must bring a MIRACLE. This is the only way. Anyone can say they are a prophet, but how will we know they receive revelations from the Creator(God)? They must bring a miracle to prove it.

Do u agree with this Steve? Or is there other criterias? Can u think of any? So do u agree a prophet must bring a miracle to prove himself since he is telling everyone how to live there lives.

Yes

But the trouble is Qkid I dont believe in miracles. Or rather I do, but they all have perfectly normal explanations, e.g. fabrication, trickery, legend, myth, illusion, hysteria etc etd.

there was a tv programme on BBC recently showing how easy it was to fool people with UFO stories. A couple of guys built a flying saucer and flew it over Avebury. Within days it was hot news in Argentina, Brazil etc etc. They succeeded beyond their wildest dreams. Just the same with miracles imo.

On the other hand I am willing to fall completely and utterly into line behind any prophet who will give me Wednesday's winning lottery numbers.

Steve,

I know that u might not believe ion miracles. But for the sake of the argument at hand, dont u agree that a prophet should bring a miracle to prove himself. And this miracle has to be verifiable scientifically or any other way. All I want to know is if u agree that the only proof someone claiming to receive revelations from God that he can bring is a miracle??

Regardless of u not believing in miracles. Then we can move on.

Well I suppose so. If it was a verifiable miracle. Like England winning 5:0 in 2 hours time!

bye for now

Steve,

Ok then. Now I ask what is a miracle?

I can't help feeling we're going round in a circle here.

A miracle is a miraculous act performed by a prophet, and a prophet is someone who performs miracles.

And as France beat England 2:1, scoring two goals in injury time, I dont believe in miracles.

Steve,

A miracle has three characteristics:

1- It must break the laws of the universe(supernatural). Like a man just starts flying without anything.
2- It must be comprehendible to the people. The whole puropse of bringing the miracle is to prove his prophethood to the people. If the people do not understand it, then it has no purpose. He cannot establish his prophethood.
3- The person must claim this is his miracle to prove himself.

Do you agree with this??

There aren't any prophets. If you could see even forty minutes into the future, where would you be right now?

I can tell you exactly where I'd be, which is at the Pimlico or Hialieh racetrack, for about two days before retiring to the Carribbean. I assume that's where ANYBODY which such abilities would be.

Have you heard or read about anybody hitting more than one trifecta recently?

Swolf

Qkid is intent on proving that prophets exist because prophets perform miracles, and miracles happen because they are performed by prophets.

Its Logic Jim, but Not As We Know it.

Heh heh, England was beat by France. At least you guys aren't constantly invading each other anymore.

Glad you're keeping up with last weeks news Cav

I don't watch much soccer.