7
   

Are Outdoorsmen CRAZY ????

 
 
Reply Thu 14 Jul, 2011 09:11 am

I get my money 's worth from my 7 foot High Definition TV.
Sometimes I watch HD Theater or Discovery HD just for the stark BEAUTY of the picture.
I watched a show called I Was Bitten concerning 2 "outdoorsmen"
in Alaska walking n fishing in Grizzly Bear country,
when 1 of them was attacked over a long period of time,
being slowly eaten by a Grizzly sow, with terribly detailed descriptions
of the victim 's injuries, including loss of both eyes.

He described how his mind left his body
and re-entered several times
in addition to his falling unconscious
and re-awakening several times,
with the bear still munching & crunching.

Videos were shown of the victim and his friend, John,
displaying large fish thay 'd cawt, with big smiles.

I was VERY taken aback by this self-described lifelong "outdoorsman"
who made NO reference WHATSOEVER to defensive firepower on the scene.

Neither he, nor his friend John, is shown in possession
of handguns nor of shoulder weapons. That was INEFFABLY IRRESPONSIBLE.

When Grizzly attacked, friend John simply fled,
eventually returning with help. There was NO mention
of any flanking of the bear nor any counterattack.
(I guess if u r unarmed, then u can 't DO that.)

The victim repeatedly described a state of "pure HELPLESSNESS" as he put it.

I find it difficult to conceive of members of my species
(who have risen to the top of the food chain, thru use of weapons)
being so STUPID as to go blithely prancing thru Grizzly country
with NO defensive firepower. Maybe he was a pacifist.

I have never been a hiker nor a hunter.
I bear good will toward the animals,
but if I were so injudicious as to venture into the wilderness,
I 'd want to take minimally my .44 Magnum Ruger SuperBlackhawk,
with full magnum hollowpointed loads.
Ideally, for personal security (not hunting) I 'd like to bring a
.45 Thompson Submachine gun with 100 round drum magazine
or a Browning Automatic Rifle (with reduced length barrell n stock).

That "outdoorsman" had it proven to him
that u NEED to keep control of the situation,
not abandon it to the discretion of predatory fauna, nor of criminals.
The victim looks young; maybe 3O.
He will have a long time to think about that.

Its better to HAVE a gun and NOT NEED it
than it is to NEED a gun and NOT HAVE it.





David
 
Ceili
 
  2  
Reply Thu 14 Jul, 2011 09:32 am
I know three people who were attacked by bears. All three had guns, all three shot at the bears, and all three missed the vital organs that would have killed the bear. It ain't easy to kill a bear, even with a high powered weapon, especially when he's on top of you.
But I'm sure a born and bred NY city guy would know that...
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jul, 2011 09:38 am
Quote:
Are Outdoorsmen CRAZY ????


Yes. Next question.
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 14 Jul, 2011 10:01 am
@Setanta,
Urban Outdoorsmen
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 14 Jul, 2011 10:30 am
@OmSigDAVID,
A .45-70 lever action is a must have weapon in bear country.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Thu 14 Jul, 2011 02:04 pm
@Ceili,
Ceili wrote:
I know three people who were attacked by bears.
All three had guns, all three shot at the bears, and all three missed
the vital organs that would have killed the bear. It ain't easy to kill a bear,
even with a high powered weapon, especially when he's on top of you.
We know that, Ceili,
but having a gun is better than being empty-handed
while he is munching on u, for lunch.
Even a Bowie knife is better than nothing,
while he is shredding your body, as happened in this case.



Ceili wrote:
But I'm sure a born and bred NY city guy would know that...
My OWN technique is to remain in civilization
most of the time. I deem it near foolproof.

I have no fear of bears nor of sharks
(tho, admittedly, I DID swim with them at Walt DisneyWorld).





David
0 Replies
 
Ceili
 
  2  
Reply Thu 14 Jul, 2011 02:06 pm
A knife wouldn't do a thing either. They'd just swat it out of your hands, same with a gun once they got close enough.
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Thu 14 Jul, 2011 02:15 pm
@Ceili,
Ceili wrote:
A knife wouldn't do a thing either. They'd just swat it out of your hands,
same with a gun once they got close enough.
That denies known experience.
In the direst emergency guys HAVE successfully put Bowie knives
thru the throats of Grizzlies who were lunching on them.
Hence, thay survived.

In this case, involving a long, slow attack,
if the victim had a gun on him, he had time to use it.
Put it against the bear's throat, or ear.

I saw a videotape of 2 forest rangers chasing a bad bear.
Thay found him. He charged. One of them took him out with one round, from a rifle.

As it was, this victim had nothing.
That is undesirable; irresponsible.





David
0 Replies
 
Ceili
 
  2  
Reply Thu 14 Jul, 2011 02:32 pm
Have you ever seen a bear attack. It's much like a shark. First they come at you full force, then when they get their jaws on you they shake you like a rag doll, at the same time smacking the person around. They normally go for the head first.
Dave, I know you think you are a super hero and all, but not even a good marksman can shoot or stab well under those circumstances.
A bear is very, very fast. They can surprise you just as much as deranged gunman in a post office. Again, even when people are armed they can surprised and taken down before they have time to react.
If his buddy did have a gun and fired it, his friend would probably have been killed by stray buckshot and then there is no guarantee the bear wouldn't then have attacked him anyway.

OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jul, 2011 03:09 pm
@Ceili,
Ceili wrote:
Have you ever seen a bear attack. It's much like a shark. First they come at you full force, then when they get their jaws on you they shake you like a rag doll, at the same time smacking the person around. They normally go for the head first.
Dave, I know you think you are a super hero and all,
That remark is unwarranted.
This thread has nothing to do with ME in the wilderness.
I have never been a big game hunter.
I don 't shoot bears. I don 't go hiking.




Ceili wrote:
but not even a good marksman can shoot or stab well under those circumstances.
U might not LIKE it,
but there have been multiple instances of victims killing bears
with Bowie knives, while the bears were eating them.
If this victim had a powerful gun (e.g., .44 Magnum or .5O caliber),
while the bear was lunching on him he had a lot of spare time
to take out the gun and use it (even blind, because he knew the whereabouts of the lunching bear).



Ceili wrote:
A bear is very, very fast. They can surprise you just as much as deranged gunman in a post office.
Again, even when people are armed they can surprised and taken down before they have time to react.
If his buddy did have a gun and fired it, his friend would probably have been killed by stray buckshot
I don 't advocate shotguns.
While this bear 's attention was dedicated to this victim,
she was exposed to the counterattacks of his friend, IF
he had adequate firepower. He had nothing.




Ceili wrote:
and then there is no guarantee the bear wouldn't then have attacked him anyway.
One does not deal in guarantys; one deals in PROBABILITIES of success.





David
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jul, 2011 08:00 am
@Ceili,
Incidentally, bears do not recognize guns nor knives,
and therefore have no interest to "swat" them
out of our hands, as u allege that thay do.

The concept of technology (e.g., guns n knives) is alien to feral bears.
Ergo, it woud not occur to them to do what u claim that thay do.





David
Ceili
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jul, 2011 09:55 am
@OmSigDAVID,
You're the bear whisperer now, eh!
It's pretty elementary Dave. Guns and knives are shiny and in their way.. A bear paw is pretty big and when they swing their big arms at you, they'll pretty much knock you and anything you're holding to the ground.
Unlike Disney fantasy Dave, Bears do not prance around on their tippy toes sparring with their victims.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jul, 2011 09:59 am
@Ceili,
Ceili wrote:
You're the bear whisperer now, eh!
It's pretty elementary Dave. Guns and knives are shiny and in their way.. A bear paw is pretty big and when they swing their big arms at you, they'll pretty much knock you and anything you're holding to the ground.
Unlike Disney fantasy Dave, Bears do not prance around on their tippy toes sparring with their victims.
It is not likely that in the history of bears,
one has ever troubled himself to "swat" anything out of any human 's hand.
That is not how thay attack.

U r anthropomorphizing the bear,
trying to imagine him as a Bruce Lee.
Ceili
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jul, 2011 10:20 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Yes, they maul a victim. Crushing their heads and ripping out their necks. Of course some people have managed to shoot or stab a bear, the people I know all survived because they fought back. I'm not advocating playing dead meat, I'm simply saying bear attacks could and do overwhelm even the most seasoned outdoorsman.
You seem to think a gun is like a halo, nothing can penetrate it's sphere and that would be wrong. A gun isn't a guarantee you won't be mauled. Being wise to the forest is.
parados
 
  0  
Reply Fri 15 Jul, 2011 10:27 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Yes Dave, and there are multiple instances of people surviving bear attacks without any weapons at all.

I guess that proves that weapons are NOT required, eh?

http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpps/news/woman-plays-dead-survives-bear-attack-dpgapx-20100729-jst_8907071

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=246_1192477132&comments=1

http://www.flutrackers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=150192
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jul, 2011 10:35 am
@Ceili,
Ceili wrote:
Yes, they maul a victim. Crushing their heads and ripping out their necks. Of course some people have managed to shoot or stab a bear, the people I know all survived because they fought back.
When doing so, it is better NOT to be empty handed.




Ceili wrote:
I'm not advocating playing dead meat, I'm simply saying bear attacks could and do overwhelm even the most seasoned outdoorsman.
Yes.


Ceili wrote:
You seem to think a gun is like a halo,
nothing can penetrate it's sphere . . .
I have never BELIEVED that nor have I implied it.
That accusation comes only from your imagination.
My position has been and is that we are better off WITH
emergency equipment, than without it,
if an emergency arises. That can be a matter of life n death.







Ceili wrote:
A gun isn't a guarantee you won't be mauled.
That is OBVIOUS and undisputed.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jul, 2011 10:40 am
@parados,
parados wrote:
Yes Dave, and there are multiple instances of people surviving bear attacks without any weapons at all.

I guess that proves that weapons are NOT required, eh?
Yes; it proves that thay are not required in each n every instance;
e.g., one fellow jumped off a cliff. The bear did not follow.

I do not believe that liberals shoud have to bear arms against their will.





David
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  0  
Reply Fri 15 Jul, 2011 11:02 am
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

When doing so, it is better NOT to be empty handed.



And you base this on what facts?
Personal experience? Obviously not.
Statistics about bear attacks? It doesn't appear so.

So other than wishful thinking, what facts do you have to support your opinion?
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Jul, 2011 11:28 am
@parados,
OmSigDAVID wrote:
When doing so, it is better NOT to be empty handed.


parados wrote:
And you base this on what facts?
Personal experience? Obviously not.
O, u KNOW ME that well that it is "obvious"; really ??
I don 't think u do.



(Let the record indicate that I have not had any contact with a bear.)




parados wrote:
Statistics about bear attacks? It doesn't appear so.

So other than wishful thinking, what facts do you have to support your opinion?
The inexorable thrust of your logic
has caused me to repudiate my position: Parados, go forth and fight a bear empty handed.
Let us know how well that works out for u.





David
parados
 
  0  
Reply Fri 15 Jul, 2011 12:58 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

OmSigDAVID wrote:
When doing so, it is better NOT to be empty handed.


parados wrote:
And you base this on what facts?
Personal experience? Obviously not.
O, u KNOW ME that well that it is "obvious"; really ??
I don 't think u do.
Are you now saying I shouldn't take your statement in the opening post as factual? It's obvious from your opening post that you haven't had contact with bears and yet you somehow have an opinion that is not based on personal experience or statistics.




Quote:

parados wrote:
Statistics about bear attacks? It doesn't appear so.

So other than wishful thinking, what facts do you have to support your opinion?
The inexorable thrust of your logic
has caused me to repudiate my position: Parados, go forth and fight a bear empty handed.
Let us know how well that works out for u.





David
So, you are relying solely on wishful thinking? Let us know how far that gets you.
 

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