Tick, tick. August 2nd is the Debt Limit Armageddon. Or Not.

@High Seas,

Quote:

“I have found that universally, [private-sector workers] care every bit as much about our country, are every bit as patriotic and wanting to make a difference … as those who wear the uniform and are in harm’s way,”

Just as long as they aren't asked to sacrifice anything personally, in the form of raising our rock-bottom tax rates one dime. When it comes to that, a large segment of our private-sector workers don't give two shits about the country or our continued financial stability.

Cycloptichorn

2 Replies

@georgeob1,

US budget historical tables

0 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

How about we propose a "patriot tax" to pay for the last 10 years of war.

a 5% surtax on all incomes until the costs and interest are paid. How can anyone be so unpatriotic as to not want to pay our soldiers for the work they have done?

2 Replies

@parados,

parados wrote:

How about we propose a "patriot tax" to pay for the last 10 years of war.

a 5% surtax on all incomes until the costs and interest are paid. How can anyone be so unpatriotic as to not want to pay our soldiers for the work they have done?

I have no qualms with such a proposal.

The idea that we should run wars by loan was ridiculous to begin with. The fact that the GOP applauded this the whole way gives the lie to the claim that they care at all about fiscal stability or balanced budgets or the financial future of the country. They only care about these things when they can be used to attack Dems or social spending they don't like.

The defense budget is up 133% over the last decade and needs to be cut dramatically if we are to balance our budget. But, see how many Republicans line up to do the right thing....

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Yes, that's the Obama team doctrine - fortunately Adm. Mullen, whose quote you just posted, believes in this simple but great observation by Jefferson:

Quote:

"I know no safe depositary of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion by education. This is the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power."

The admiral is no economist but the math involved in the debt is elementary - and he's right. It speaks volumes for team Obama that they deny the truth.

1 Reply

@High Seas,

High Seas wrote:

Standing firm in order to focus the people's attention that we're standing on the edge of a precipice, but it's still time to get our affairs in order and pull back.

Even to the point of pushing us over that precipice in order to make the point. We can talk about the drain on the economy that entitlements and Pell grants bring all we want, but the truth is that folks who've spent decades saving and investing in order to support their needs without depending entirely on entitlements and grants don't need the kind of help that your folks are bringing.

Quote:

Did you happen to look up any of the speeches of Adm. Mullen on the debt? He trusts the people's judgement, as do I. Sadly, Obama et al don't:

Quote:
The national debt is the single biggest threat to national security, according to Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Yes, thanks. But I think we have to be cautious of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

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@parados,

I'm in.

1 Reply

@parados,

parados wrote:

A 2% vs 5% GDP growth for 2011-12 doesn't equate to tax revenues being down by $.6 trillion over the next 16 months.

Assume the projected growth is 5% and the projected deficit is 1.1 trillion over 12 month.
The debt ceiling was raised by 2.4 trillion.
One would have to make the ridiculous assumption that all of that 3% GDP growth was going for taxes under the current projections for us to run into the debt ceiling by Nov of next year. (14 trillion x .03 = .42 trillion vs the .6 trillion revenues would have to go down on the current debt ceiling.)

The obvious problem with your pseudo analysis is that the GDP growth you and the current administration have been using have already proven themselves to be very optimistic. The administration's forecasts for the past two years were downgraded significantly, yet they persist with unrealistic predictions. The truly unusual element in our recovery from the recent recession is the very slow recovery of private sector economic activity and employment that has followed the crash. Nothing in the Administrations rhetoric or proposed policies addresses that elephant in our political room. Instead they propose only more regulation; more direct dsubsidies; more handouts inducing more lassitude and passive dependency among the recipients. In short more of the poision that has already slowed our recovery and which promises to further poision our economic prospects until we get some new political leadership.

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@georgeob1,

So.. tell us what GDP growth will cause the revenue projections to be down by .6 trillion over the next 16 months.

What do you think the likelihood of that GDP occurring?

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@georgeob1,

Quote:

The obvious problem with your pseudo analysis is that the GDP growth you and the current administration have been using have already proven themselves to be very optimistic.

The funniest part of that george is how realistic the current administration is compared to the last one when it comes to projections.

1 Reply

@High Seas,

Quote:

The admiral is no economist but the math involved in the debt is elementary - and he's right. It speaks volumes for team Obama that they deny the truth.

You are correct - the math is indeed elementary. But you're incorrect if you think that the math doesn't require tax increases to balance our budget and address our debt. It most certainly does. And yet; your party continually denies this quite obvious truth.

What more, Mullen is once again correct about the wisdom of the people - because most Americans do agree that taxes should be raised to deal with the deficit and debt.

The only ones who don't agree with the math or the people of America are the GOP, who refuses to recognize the obvious fact that their policy recommendations are completely insufficient to tackle the problems they deem crucial to address.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@JPB,

JPB wrote:

I'm in.

Time to contact your member of Congress.

1 Reply

@parados,

parados wrote:

Quote:

The obvious problem with your pseudo analysis is that the GDP growth you and the current administration have been using have already proven themselves to be very optimistic.

The funniest part of that george is how realistic the current administration is compared to the last one when it comes to projections.

Yes, but Republicans claim to have disowned Bush and don't believe that their years of full-throated support for him and his policies can be held against him now.

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

@parados,

I'm giving him a break for a day or two.

1 Reply

@JPB,

JPB wrote:

I'm giving him a break for a day or two.

They are on vacation until Sept. Don't let him/her relax too much.

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Charade, indeed!

Quote:

Here's something to chew on: If stocks fall today, it will be the longest losing streak in 33 years. The Dow has dropped eight days in a row. Not even during the depths of the 2008 and 2009 financial crisis did we suffer nine consecutive down days.

What's going on?

The correct answer: Who knows? The market is never predictable.

What seems likely, though, is that the recent debt-ceiling charade caused real damage to the economy. More

1 Reply

@JPB,

From the same link

Quote:

It will be interesting to see whether the recent data is a temporary blip caused by a short-term hunkering down during the debt-ceiling debate, or more of a prolonged shift back toward a recessionary mind-set. My bet's on the former.

Unless, of course, the goal wasn't to make a point about where we're standing but to continue to push us ever closer to the edge. There's been lots of talk over the past few months from people about what we can't do, even in the short term. I've yet to see anything from these folks on what we should do that will actually improve the economy. The longer they keep yapping their yaps and "holding firm" in order to make a point, the longer the markets and the economy will stay depressed.

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@High Seas,

Even 2% at this juncture is too optimistic; it just isn't going to happen. With the cuts in place, we're going to see more job cuts and loss of demand for goods and services. That's going to impact all economies around the world.

I wouldn't be surprised to see higher cost in the future without much inflation, because people do not have the money to spend on cars and homes.

It doesn't matter how high the price of gold ends up; the higher cost for all goods and services will only reduce the circulation of money to what the households can afford to keep food on the table, and a roof over their heads.

We're looking at a losing proposition, because many still believe the tea party has done the right thing to cut government spending. It will only exacerbate the joblessness, and will impact state budgets with cuts in medical and infrastructure money.

I'm just wondering when the price of bonds are going to drop and the rates increase? The feds inability to service the debt will only become more difficult as our economy continues to shrink.

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

You are correct - the math is indeed elementary. But you're incorrect if you think that the math doesn't require tax increases to balance our budget and address our debt. It most certainly does. And yet; your party continually denies this quite obvious truth.

What more, Mullen is once again correct about the wisdom of the people - because most Americans do agree that taxes should be raised to deal with the deficit and debt.

The only ones who don't agree with the math or the people of America are the GOP, who refuses to recognize the obvious fact that their policy recommendations are completely insufficient to tackle the problems they deem crucial to address.

I think it would be much closer to the truth to say that the Republicans don't detect any voluntary willingness on the part of Democrats to restrain the increases in government spending they have already enacted, much less reduce it significantly. As a result they are demanding cuts in spending now, and if delivered, I suspect will entrertain tax increases later. Very likely Democrat rationalizations have a mirror image quality in that many of them believe tax increases are equally as immediately imperative as spending cuts (or merely the rollback of increases they have enacted) and are willing to entertain spending restraint if tax increases are imposed. In that respect both are holding off on elements needed for full recovery. Hence the recent impasse and compromise.

In my view the discriminator here is the likely (in my eyes) effects of the huge increases in government's use of its expanded regulatory power and inefficient giveaways to its favored constituents to significantly slow our economic recovery from the recent recession. The crisis that hit us in 2008 had many components and worldwide causes & consequences. Not all of them are affected by the Obama Administration's unwise policies, but the effects have been negative enough and sufficiently focused on the key elements required for recovery to put us in a truly dangerous position.

A second element is that Obama doesn't appear to consider anything at all beyond the social and economic interests cultivated in his years as a "community organizer". This certainly resonates well with the most vocal interest groups supporting the Democrat party, but it falls very far short of what is required of a President of this country. He has repeatedly failed in his leadership responsibilities. We will be well rid of him in 2012.

3 Replies

@georgeob1,

I will agree with you that the liberals have a difficult time making adjustments to social security, Medicare, and medical, but those are the very programs that needs adjustments to bring revenue in line with cost. Defense is another area that must be cut, or nothing we do with other government programs are going to impact our growing debt.

Now that the tea party has been successful in decimating our stock market in one months time, and many have lost a good portion of their retirement savings, that only increases the need of our government to step in to help our citizens survive. Why do we continue to spend billions on wars when the crisis is at home?

Yes, our government is broken; it's no longer able to negotiate common sense goals.

1 Reply

Tick, tick. August 2nd is the Debt Limit Armageddon. Or Not.

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