Tick, tick. August 2nd is the Debt Limit Armageddon. Or Not.

@hawkeye10,

Can't say I would loan you money, with an attitude like that.

@roger,

roger wrote:

Can't say I would loan you money, with an attitude like that.

Are you even slightly aware of how many debtors walk away from their debts?

Quote:

Consumers are mad as hell and they're not going to take it anymore.
Every day, the bank calls--demanding to know why the consumer hasn't paid his credit card bills. Every time the consumer skips a payment (to persuade the bank to cut the interest rate), the bank responds by jacking up the interest rate. And so on.
Now consumers are finally responding by doing what banks do when they can't pay their debts: just walking away.
David Streitfeld, NYT: Those on the front lines of the debt industry say there is a small but increasingly noticeable group of strapped consumers who... are deciding they will simply stop paying. After loading up on debt eagerly provided by the card companies during the boom times, these people now find themselves trapped in an endless cycle where they are charged interest on interest and fees upon fees while the lenders get government bailouts...
Collectors are noticing a shift not only in ability but in willingness to pay. “With all the bailouts the government is giving everyone, no one has any personal accountability about their own debts,” said Roger Knauf, who runs a trade group of debt-buying firms...
That people would intentionally default on loans they never should have gotten in the first place took lenders by surprise. “I’m astonished that people would walk away from their homes,” Bank of America chief executive Kenneth Lewis said in late 2007.
Nineteen months later, walking away from mortgages is widespread if impossible to quantify, and no cause for embarrassment. Rather the opposite: it shows savviness. “I’ll walk away before I take a loss,” a Dallas financier recently boasted to Barron’s magazine about his efforts to sell his $6 million vacation estate.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/henry-blodget-the-new-consumer-debt-strategy-just-walk-away-2009-7#ixzz1TlAKYFyC

People arguing that debts are sacrosanct are way behind the times..

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

People arguing that debts are sacrosanct are way behind the times..

Yes, I was aware of that problem. Now, I'm aware that you are a part of it.

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Sounds like you have been reading the Progressive Causus talking points...

Nope, the Progressive Caucus and I have independently applied the correct analysis, that's all.

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Why are hard-Left progressives and Congressional Black Caucus members fighting this new deal so hard?

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@roger,

Hawkeye is quoting a long-dead French anarchist, Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, who wrote "all property is theft". Hardly original - even Marx thought it extreme - and completely irrelevant to our own federal debt. The debt is contractual, and payments due on it take precedence over payments due pursuant to some Act of Congress, which can be reduced or cancelled by another Act. In loans with liens on assets like mortgages, lenders can take over the assets in case of non-payment - and, depending on state law, may or may not have recourse to additional assets of the borrower. A useless digression...

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@H2O MAN,

I also think it's a bad deal - it's a band-aid compared to the $4 trillion minimum cuts over 10 years necessary if we're ever to balance the federal budget.

1 Reply

@High Seas,

I agree that it's only a band-aid. But it's a band-aid that will, hopefully, stem the bleeding long enough for the American people to weigh in on how best to proceed. We cannot continue to increase the budget without increasing revenues.

The business community and banks are sitting on billions in cash, supposedly waiting for confidence before expanding into growth areas. Let's see them do just that. If they don't then the Republican concept of free markets has fallen on it's face. If they do then revenues will increase on their own through a well-employed workforce. We have between now and Nov 2012 to see how the business/banking communities react. They aren't sitting on the sidelines because of government anchors around their necks. They have been given all sorts of bailouts and incentives to grow and expand the economy and they've chosen to do just the opposite. Now is the time to see what steps they take to do their part to pull us back from the brink.

Part of what has brought us to this point has been unparalleled greed from a number of quarters. For now, this bill puts the onus on the gov't to make some cuts in lieu of increased revenues. The triggers that were set for the next round are not the triggers I would have chosen. But if the unemployment rate (which is determined, now, by those who do the hiring and firing) is still above 8% by next November then I think I know pretty well what the voters are going to decide on where the revenues should be coming from.

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@hawkeye10,

Talking about Pelosi "isn't" about the current crisis. We're talking about current and future events in our political world.

Your tangents are typical when you can't answer current problems.

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Quote:

The House will vote before the Senate on the debt ceiling agreement, a GOP leadership aide said Monday.

The vote is expected Monday evening or night, but a time has not been set.

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@hawkeye10,

"We make the rules?" Yes, a true fascist speaking from the heart.

You're ignoring our Constitution; this is a democratic republic. At least that's what this country was built on. We now have fascists in our government who wants to control it without considering our Constitution.

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@hawkeye10,

And you truly believe it's okay to walk away from your debts?

You have no sense of responsibility from the micro or macro-sense.

1 Reply

@roger,

hawk, FYI: Most governments that exist today have debt. If it wasn't for debt, we would have lost WWII.

It's obvious you have no understanding of economics or how governments are allowed under their laws to have debt.

Your thinking is myopic and dangerous. You are a tyrant and a fascist who demands "your way or the highway." No common sense or ability to understand the realities of this world, and how democracies work.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

9:22AM, Monday: The US markets are taking a beating. It seems most American investors do not see the debt ceiling agreement as final until voted upon by both houses.

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@cicerone imposter,

Some analysts are already predicting that the unemployment will increase with the agreement on cutting spending. This is the opposite of what the American people desire, but many Americans are confused about cost cutting during a recovery from any recession.

Their demands and wishes to cut government spending will impact more families and our economy in negative ways. This is what happens when people do not understand economics.

They are cutting their own throats. I hope they die peacefully.

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@cicerone imposter,

I just wrote this email to [email protected].

Quote:

Mr Messina, President Obama gave up too much for this "deal."

He should have known that trying to negotiate with the GOP-tea party was a losing proposition, and once he started to back off, they knew they already won, and demanded more.

Another point where Obama failed was in his lack at communication to the American people from the very beginning - to set limits on what he will do and not do. He essentially gave away the farm, because nobody knew how far he will go to get an agreement.

He proved that blackmail works, so all future negotiations will be more difficult, if not impossible.

President Obama should know that some revenue is necessary to pay off current and past expenses. This is also what most Americans wanted. He relented to their outrageous demands.

Obama is a failure as a leader of this country. He will not get any more donations or my vote in the future.

*Cicerone Imposter

Sunnyvale, CA

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@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

Some analysts are already predicting that the unemployment will increase with the agreement on cutting spending.

Very true.

Quote:

The New York Times
July 31, 2011
From Spending to Cuts, While the Economy Stalls
By BINYAMIN APPELBAUM and CATHERINE RAMPELL

WASHINGTON — The nation’s political leaders agreed on Sunday to spend and invest less money in the American economy, a step that economists said risks the reversal of a faltering recovery, in the hope of improving the nation’s long-term prosperity.

The emerging outlines of a deal to cut spending by at least $2.4 trillion over 10 years, with a multibillion-dollar down payment later this year, would complete an about-face in the federal government’s role from outsize spending in the immediate aftermath of the recession to outsize cuts in the future.

Last week brought the disconcerting news that the economy grew no faster than the population during the first six months of the year, in part because of spending cuts by state and local governments. Now the federal government is cutting, too.

“Unemployment will be higher than it would have been otherwise,” Mohamed El-Erian, chief executive of the bond investment firm Pimco, said Sunday on ABC. “Growth will be lower than it would be otherwise. And inequality will be worse than it would be otherwise.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/01/us/politics/01econ.html?hp

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

....He essentially gave away the farm, because nobody knew how far he will go to get an agreement.....

Was it his farm to give? Doubt it, but anyway - everybody interested knew exactly how far he would go to get an agreement: anything moving a vote beyond 2012 would be acceptable to him. Just read back on this thread, see all the posts making exactly that point; why are you surprised now?!

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@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

Obama is a failure as a leader of this country. He will not get any more donations or my vote in the future.

So, what will you do--vote Republican? Not vote in the next Presidential election?

I agree with you that Obama has shown a failure of leadership. And a failure of backbone. But who is the alternative?

I think Obama is banking on the fact that those who voted for him before will vote for him again, simply because the alternative would be unpalatable. But I don't envision any enthusiatic grassroots campaign for him, as there was the last time around. For Democrats, or Democratically inclined independents, or for many centrists, he will just be the lesser of the evils on the Presidential ballot.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

And you truly believe it's okay to walk away from your debts?

It's a business decision like any other. On the downside, your credit record is trash and nobody will lend you money anymore, except maybe at usurious interest rates. On the upside, your current debt is history (with qualifications---the Bush-II administration made it harder to declare personal bankruptcy). Hence, the decision is the same for the individual as for a troubled business that considers the option of declaring bankruptcy. It will base its decision solely on a sober cost-benefit analysis for itself. It's a rare business accountant who loses any sleep over the plight of his creditors. Why should we hold individuals to a different standard of ethics than businesses?

1 Reply

Tick, tick. August 2nd is the Debt Limit Armageddon. Or Not.

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