26
   

Tick, tick. August 2nd is the Debt Limit Armageddon. Or Not.

 
 
JPB
 
  2  
Reply Thu 21 Jul, 2011 12:12 pm
@cicerone imposter,
There's no question in my mind who's going to lose.

We are.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jul, 2011 12:36 pm
@JPB,
That's a given no matter which way it ends up; the tea party doesn't understand the impact of their stubborn stance. They believe their blackmail will work, but all it has done is damage our bond rating, and how it will cost more for businesses and consumers to borrow money. That in turn will increase the handicap to our economy in many ways.

They don't have a clue.
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jul, 2011 12:46 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Simply engaging in this stalemate has already had an effect on business hiring and layoffs.

It's not like we didn't have enough dilemmas trying to slog our way out of a recession into sustained growth, now we've got Congress playing self-designed bullshit power play games that do nothing but make it worse.

But we have no one to blame but ourselves. Every single one of them were elected by voters. The extremists from both camps were elected to be just that - extreme - by factions of the populace who are equally extreme. The only thing you get with extremist factions is gridlock, particularly when the factions represent more than a tiny minority. Unfortunately, the extremist voters who put them there get all of their information from equally extreme media sources and they tend to think the answer is simply to elect more extremists to their side than the other camp gets. The ability to govern gets lost in the mud pit that lays between the tug-of-war teams.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jul, 2011 12:51 pm
The pessimism school seems to be growing

David Gergen
Quote:
And time is rapidly running out. We now find ourselves on a boat sailing just above Niagara Falls. The closer we get to the edge, the greater the danger that we will be sucked over the precipice.
Several days ago, I would have put the odds on option (b) at better than 50-50; today, sadly, I reckon the odds are less than 50-50. In other words, the prospects point increasingly toward a default. Let us hope that is not the case. No one can be sure of the near-term financial consequences, especially if Congress then acted quickly to reverse itself, as it did over the Bush bailout in 2008. But a default, however short, will definitely fuel a growing perception in the world of America in decline.
We also know that the credit rating agencies such as Standard & Poor's and Moody's -- both eager to reclaim their manhood -- are watching these follies with a gimlet eye. Even if Washington passes a version of Reid/McConnell, averting a default, S&P has made clear that absent some sort of multitrillion plan that goes with it, there is a good chance it will downgrade our credit rating. If we actually default, the credit agencies are practically guaranteeing a downgrade.
So, where does all this come out? I deeply regret -- and hope that I am wrong -- that as of this eleventh hour, the answer is option (e) -- default and downgrade. We have one more hour till midnight.
This is no way to run a country

http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/07/21/gergen.no.way.debt/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jul, 2011 12:51 pm
@JPB,
I agree with this, but I reject the concept that the two parties are equal in their extremity. Because this clearly isn't the case.

Cycloptichorn
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jul, 2011 12:54 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Their rhetoric is equally extreme. Lines in the sand are lines in the sand no matter who draws them.
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jul, 2011 12:55 pm
@JPB,
Yes. <points to sig line>
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jul, 2011 12:57 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

Their rhetoric is equally extreme. Lines in the sand are lines in the sand no matter who draws them.


I do not agree with this statement in the slightest. The rhetoric employed by the two parties most certainly is NOT equally extreme.

It's farcical that you would even say this. The Republicans have been far, far more extreme in their rhetoric over the last several months. I mean, do I have to even tell you that a large portion of the GOP caucus is actively calling for a default? Stating that they will not raise the limit under ANY circumstances, for any reason, no matter what?

Pretending equivalence between the two parties, at this point, is a huge part of the problem, JPB, because there is no equivalence whatsoever between the behavior of Dems over the last several years and the behavior of the Republicans over the last several years.

Cycloptichorn
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jul, 2011 01:10 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Of course you don't. I didn't expect you would. You've got as tight a hold on your end of the rope as any conservative on the other side.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jul, 2011 01:11 pm
@JPB,
I agree with your analysis by 100%. We elect them into office without understanding the consequences for extremist views.

We were in recovery mode when the tea party won elections, because Americans do not understand that Great Recessions are not solved overnight.

Americans also do not understand basic economics; austerity programs during economic recessions only exacerbates problems.

The fundamentals of the American economy is relatively strong, because our economy is based on diversity in the production of goods and services.

We just need to push it along with more government spending to improve our infrastructure and education. When we continue to constrict government spending in one bell swoop (one debt ceiling vote), most of which was approved through both democratic and republican control in Washington DC during decades of give and take, it becomes impossible for our country to survive.

The fact that many countries were confident in purchasing US Treasuries was based on the strength of our economy; that we would always pay on our obligations - on the bonds.

That's now all changed, and what has happened to Greece will now be reflected in the higher cost of borrowing in our country. That only creates a bigger handicap for our economy with higher interest, and instability in the bond markets.

This will also impact our economy in many negative ways - at a time when we were slowly digging out of the Great Recession.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jul, 2011 01:12 pm
@JPB,
Amen.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jul, 2011 01:14 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
You're missing the point; lines in the sand is extremism.

Tea Party: no taxes
Liberals: no cuts in social security or Medicare

Those lines were drawn early on in this debate on the debt ceiling.
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jul, 2011 01:14 pm
@sozobe,
Great point re your sigline. When was the last time that primaries focused on which candidate wanted to be less extreme?
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jul, 2011 01:15 pm
@cicerone imposter,
That's not true, though.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "liberals."

Within the government, the Republican line (until recently) was no new taxes.

While the Democratic line was "we'd hate to cut social security or Medicare but we would really hate to default, so we're willing to put that on the table to get a deal done."
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jul, 2011 01:18 pm
@sozobe,
This was pretty common in early July.

Quote:
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: Saturday, July 9, 2011

ICYMI: 70 House Democrats Tell Obama No Cuts to Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid in Deficit Deal

Letter Details Objections to Proposed Social Security COLA Cut


(Washington, D.C.) — U.S. Representative Donna Edwards (D-MD) announced yesterday (see press release below) that she and 69 other Democrats in the U.S. House of Representatives sent a letter to President Obama urging him to “protect Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security by keeping these important programs off the bargaining table.” The letter also provided a detailed explanation of why the formula used to calculate the Social Security COLA should not be changed so that benefits would be reduced, which is a subject of bargaining in the deficit-reduction talks.


“Getting more than one-third of House Democrats to sign this letter in two days is a major achievement,” said Eric Kingson, Co-Chair of the Strengthen Social Security Campaign. “It shows the depth of opposition to these harmful proposals.”
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Thu 21 Jul, 2011 01:19 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

Of course you don't. I didn't expect you would. You've got as tight a hold on your end of the rope as any conservative on the other side.


Bullshit. Your statement is indefensible; you couldn't factually back up your argument if you actually attempted to do so.

Sure makes you sound moderate tho, to say that both sides are equally bad. Doesn't it? Like you're above all this ****, and both sides need to grow up equally. That sounds nice, but it's a fundamentally false way to look at the situation, and - like I said above - statements like this are as much of the problem as anything else right now.

The truth is that the Republicans are far more extreme in their rhetoric and their politics than the Dems; and you know it's true, but don't want to admit it, because in your heart you're cheering for them to win this showdown. Wouldn't you agree?

Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jul, 2011 01:20 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

You're missing the point; lines in the sand is extremism.

Tea Party: no taxes
Liberals: no cuts in social security or Medicare

Those lines were drawn early on in this debate on the debt ceiling.


Except, Obama has specifically offered to make some cuts in both Medicare and SS as part of the negotiation process, according to news reports. So I don't know how you can say that the Dems have made this their 'line in the sand.' It's simply untrue.

I swear to christ, it's like I'm the only one here who actually reads up on this ****.

Cycloptichorn
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jul, 2011 01:21 pm
@JPB,
I think 2008. Obama definitely campaigned as non-extreme.

Quote:
Now even as we speak, there are those who are preparing to divide us -- the spin masters, the negative ad peddlers who embrace the politics of "anything goes." Well, I say to them tonight, there is not a liberal America and a conservative America -- there is the United States of America. There is not a Black America and a White America and Latino America and Asian America -- there’s the United States of America.

The pundits, the pundits like to slice-and-dice our country into Red States and Blue States; Red States for Republicans, Blue States for Democrats. But I’ve got news for them, too. We worship an "awesome God" in the Blue States, and we don’t like federal agents poking around in our libraries in the Red States. We coach Little League in the Blue States and yes, we’ve got some gay friends in the Red States. There are patriots who opposed the war in Iraq and there are patriots who supported the war in Iraq. We are one people, all of us pledging allegiance to the stars and stripes, all of us defending the United States of America.


I think Hillary Clinton and John Edwards were both seen as more extreme.
sozobe
 
  2  
Reply Thu 21 Jul, 2011 01:23 pm
@cicerone imposter,
That supports what I'm saying. That's 70 out of 435 members of the House, who were urging Obama to change his willingness to put those things on the bargaining table.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Jul, 2011 01:24 pm
@sozobe,
Obama can be "non-extreme," but he also has to work with congress. That's essentially where the current problem exists.
 

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