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US To Return To Moon ... and Beyond

 
 
Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2004 04:07 am
It was called the "Rover buggy"
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2004 06:21 am
If I had to pick the most compelling piece it would be the lack of dust kicked up or scarring by the landing module's rocket engines. I remember my Grandfather stubbornly denying that they ever landed on the moon. I laughed and thought he was nuts. I've read that site repeatedly now and the cumulative effect is disbelief. As hard as it would be to fake something like that, it would indeed be harder to not fake it. Once I accepted that they could be lying, it was an easy slide to they probably are. After all, it is the simplest possible explaination.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2004 07:12 am
Thomas wrote:
edgarblythe wrote:
Experts, like the Bible, can be quoted to support any position, I think.

Edgar, I sympathize with this sentiment. In forming your own opinion, you may find it helpful to go to a library and browse the 1969-73 issues of scientific magazines like "Science" and "Nature". You will find that for all the hype around these missions, their scientific output was almost nil. Richard Feynman, one of my and Sozobe's heroes, discusses this observation in his piece on the Challenger catastrophe, published in his book "What do you care what other people think?"

But Feynman is an expert, so remember to keep him at arm's length.



Even if the "scientific" aspect of the human element is less than we'd like it to be -- we should go.

How much scientific value is obtained from humans getting to the top of Mt. Everest?

I understand where you folks are coming from -- but we've gotta go because it is out there.

I gotta admit I find it disappointing that so many in this group -- the A2Kers -- are where they are on this issue.
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2004 09:14 am
I don't dispute the experts who say that unmanned missions are at present more productive and cheaper. But, aside from the romance of humans in outer space, there are other considerations. I believe the old notion that nature puts life in every available nook and cranny applies to humans and space. I want to see manned stations with an eye to colonization.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2004 09:49 am
edgarblythe wrote:
I don't dispute the experts who say that unmanned missions are at present more productive and cheaper. But, aside from the romance of humans in outer space, there are other considerations. I believe the old notion that nature puts life in every available nook and cranny applies to humans and space. I want to see manned stations with an eye to colonization.



AMEN!
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2004 10:34 am
Campaign Stunt.

The biggest logistical hurdle is how to cut Halliburton in on the action.

I didn't think they had fossil fuels on the moon.

Then again, none of Dubya's wildcat ventures ever struck oil, either.

So what should the slogan be?

Moon or Arbusto? :wink:
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2004 10:45 am
Wilso wrote

Quote:
The part that convinced me was a film of the "dune buggy" they had. When they speeded up the film, the dust kicked up by the wheels, instead of floating like it would in 1/6th gravity, fell straight back down the same way it would on a beach on earth


I despair of otherwise intelligent people who prefer conspiracy theory to fact.

Why did they need to speed up the film ?

Don't you think the Russians might have had something to say if it was all a fraud?

How do you account for the chemical composition of moon rocks clearly showing they could not be formed on earth?

What about the radio signals from the moon's surface?

If it was a hoax, why build something as big and spectacular as a Saturn 5? Perhaps all the people who saw it took off were suffering from mass hysteria?

Finally the trajectory of the dust kicked up by the moon rover wheels in real time (not speeded up) could only be produced in moon not earth gravity.

What the conspiracy nuts and moon hoaxers don't realise is that the matter is settled. Nobody with any scientific understanding is the slightest bit interested in what these people say. In fact the more they do say, the more they demonstrate their ignorance.

[this rant not directed at you Wilso]

The moon landings were a huge advertisement for the USA. (and not much else) Is it not possible they might want to assure their visual impact by mocking up some shots in a studio, just in case? It would be a monumental disappointment to land on the moon only to find someone had forgotten to put a film in the camera.
Having said all that, the one visual affect that convinces me the moon buggy must have been in 1/6 g is the dust trajectory. The very thing that Wilso finds convincing the other way. I would be interested in any supporting evidence to show the dust tragectory was in 1g.
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Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2004 10:54 am
Perhaps the most convincing piece of evidence that the moon landing was real. if such evidence is needed, is that the Russians, who were much closer to making an attempt than most people realize, made no complaint at all. Because the moon landings were all about national pride, not scientific exploration, if there had been any hint that they had been faked, they would have screamed like banshees
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2004 02:20 pm
I searched moon landing hoaxes a long time back. I didn't find a single compelling argument to support hoax theories.
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Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2004 03:13 pm
Wilso, What is interesting about the site that you find so convincing is that one partof it is dedicated to proving that the moon landings were a fraud. But another part assumes that the astronauts actually got to the moon and is dedicated to proving that they found evidence of extra terrestrials (UFO's). Which part do you find more convincing?
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2004 06:06 pm
From the Beeb:To the moon, alice!
Quote:

Last Updated: Saturday, 10 January, 2004, 00:07 GMT
E-mail this to a friend Printable version
To election 2004 and beyond...
By Ian Pannell
BBC correspondent in Washington

Big countries require big ideas.

As ever, cost is a major consideration when sending people into space
Strangely, never more so than in an election year!

It is no surprise then that President George W Bush plans to announce the return of astronauts to the moon, a permanent space-station there and, oh yes, perhaps a trip or two to Mars as well.

In a country that patented the idea that anything is possible, this mission may be just what Americans wants to hear.

Big ideas to get votes

This has been a week of big ideas. Only two days ago, the president proposed an overhaul of immigration laws to allow more overseas workers to come in to do the jobs Americans won't.


MANNED SPACE EXPLORATION

It is a plan that has been brewing for some time. About four years to be precise, ever since... well, ever since the last election campaign actually.

The Latino community is now officially the largest ethnic minority in America. Although they are more inclined to vote Democrat they are also regarded as culturally conservative and the Republicans spy fertile ground.

With some guile the move also appeals to other Americans, perhaps independent voters.

Faced with the impression that they have pandered too much to their hard-line base, those clever folk in the Bush re-election team realise the value in rekindling the compassionate conservative flame.

What better way to appeal to the moderates than a large dose of socially conscious politics?

Election 2004

What do these big ideas have in common? Well, firstly only a fool or an eternal optimist would bet much of their pocket-money on either passing the US Congress.

The space programme could cost as much as a trillion dollars.
Some in Congress will certainly ask Mr Bush to show them the money

With the government already swimming in a sea of red ink there will be little enthusiasm to sink the public purse much deeper.

Don't forget that President George Bush Snr also had a plan to send astronauts to Mars. That was buried by a Congress more preoccupied with big bills than big ideas/costs than concepts.

The immigration reform plan also faces formidable opposition.

The Democrats are upset that it hurts American workers. Conservatives are upset because they think it rewards illegal immigrants.

Amid the smell of political fudge, the administration has deliberately left the details vague.

These two ideas have something else in common: November 2004.

Neither big proposal is likely to be decided upon before America goes to the polls and chooses a new president, a new House of Representatives and a third of the US Senate.

What matters is that this is a president (and candidate) with crowd-pleasing ideas. Remember, optimism sells.

The more the Democrats rally behind Howard Dean, the angry doctor from Vermont, the more the Republicans can be expected to "accentuate the positive".

So bring me your huddled masses, we're off to the final frontier... election 2004.

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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2004 06:54 pm
A very good friend of mine is a former Soviet. She went to school and later taught at a school in Rovenki Luganskaya, Ukraine. She both learned and taught that the American Moon shot was probably bogus. She laughed at me when I made reference to the "achievement". Albina is a highly intelligent person with an intimidating knowledge of History.

My point is; it is wrong to charge someone who disagrees with your interpretation of things, you have no firsthand knowledge of, with ignorance. It is akin to atheists calling Christians ignorant and vice versa. Unless there is an A2Ker who either walked on the moon, or participated in the cover up; we are all making educated guesses. Idea
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2004 06:57 pm
There has to be evidence of a conspiracy, not just willingness to accept conspiracy theories.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2004 06:59 pm
Considering how poorly the government accomplishes keeping anything secret, I doubt they could manage such a cover up.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2004 07:00 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
A very good friend of mine is a former Soviet. She went to school and later taught at a school in Rovenki Luganskaya, Ukraine. She both learned and taught that the American Moon shot was probably bogus. She laughed at me when I made reference to the "achievement". Albina is a highly intelligent person with an intimidating knowledge of History.

Was she trained before or after the demise of the Soviet Union? If before, I'm not overly surprised she would have been taught that.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2004 07:07 pm
hobitbob wrote:
Considering how poorly the government accomplishes keeping anything secret, I doubt they could manage such a cover up.


<nods>

Which is pretty much true for most every alleged major conspiracy/cover-up, at least in these messy democracies ...
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2004 07:09 pm
Except for the Priure de Sion, the Templars, and the lizard thingys under DIA, of course! Wink
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2004 07:09 pm
its all the fault of the moustachioed equiphiles. Very Happy
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Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2004 07:14 pm
I have a brother who participated in the space program, he was in graduate school during the 70's and got to work with a lot of the moon data. Brown University, which is not too far from me has a whole section of it's geology department that is devoted to working with lunar and martian data. In fact one of their facility members has published a book on lunar geology. So while I have not participated directly in the moon project, I know and am related to people who did. Never has any of them indicated that the data was false and the number of, and character of, the people involved make it extremely unlikely that there is a coverup.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Jan, 2004 07:20 pm
Bob- She was in school during the collapse and taught after.
Nimh- What about the origin of the Uranium for the "thin man"?
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