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US To Return To Moon ... and Beyond

 
 
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 08:26 pm
Quote:
UPI Exclusive: Bush OKs new moon missions


The rumors have been swirling a while, but this has the ring of authenticity:

]By Frank Sietzen Jr. and Keith L. Cowing
United Press International
Published 1/8/2004 7:30 PM


WASHINGTON, Jan. 8 (UPI) -- American astronauts will return to the moon early in the next decade in preparation for sending crews to explore Mars and nearby asteroids, President Bush is expected to propose next week as part of a sweeping reform of the U.S. space program ...


So, what are your thoughts? If you voted in the poll, why did you vote the way you did, and if you didn't vote, would you care to share your reason? Lets hear about it.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 8,672 • Replies: 180
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Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 08:35 pm
With the financial condition this country is in we can not afford that kind of stunt. If science is the goal it can be done cheaper and more extensively with satellites and probes. A maned mission would just suck scarce dollars from more scientifically productive efforts. Few people seem to remember that the Russians managed to retrieve moon rocks with a robotic probe while the US sent people. Of the two the Russian feat was cheaper and just as productive in terms of scientific pay back.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 08:50 pm
I voted "A waste of resources"
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 08:58 pm
We can't seem to afford the space station. How can we pay for the new stuff?
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 09:02 pm
A waste. Agree with what Acquiunk said about the robot. Manned space flight in general is more about the glamour than the science -- the glamour does directly result in more $$$ and brainpower to science, though, so it can be argued that it has its place.

But not to the moon.
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Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 09:05 pm
I was just thinking about the space program in the last few minutes and was considering posting a question. Guess I'll just do it here?

A couple of years ago now, the contractor to build the next generation orbiter was announced (I think by Al Gore). From memory it was Lockheed (skunkworks?). I haven't heard anything about it since. Does anyone know anything about it? Is it going ahead?
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Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 09:05 pm
BTW, I voted campaign stunt.
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Adrian
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 09:38 pm
I voted long overdue because I think space exploration is one of the most important things there is. This planet isn't going to support us forever. When we next "evolve" it will be into space. How anyone can think sending a robot to the moon has as much scientific importance as sending a human I don't know. Would love somebody to explain it.

Wilso, there have been a few attempts at the shuttle replacement but none have shown enough promise to get the go ahead. Lockheed was working on two different ideas but they were both cancelled.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 09:43 pm
Adrian, what do humans DO on the moon?

Look around? A robot can take some really nifty pictures.

Gather samples of moon rocks? Robots can do that REALLY well.

Make a good photo op? Robots do that passably well (witness front page of the NYT a couple of days ago), but humans are better.
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Adrian
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 09:47 pm
What they do there is not the important part, it's being able to GET them there AND back that is important. Sending a robot doesn't help much in that endeaver.
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Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 09:55 pm
The purpose of space exploration is scientific understanding not romanic adventure. At the moment humans in space are a problem. I have a brother who is a planetary scientist. The last thing he wants to see is humans back in space as that sucks the money out of the scientific effort to fund the very expensive support systems needed to keep humans alive in space.
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 09:57 pm
I like the idea of humans on the moon. A permanent base there makes more sense than the space stations, which contribute space junk and have to be replaced from time to time. But, because of tight money, I don't expect to see any real changes in the immediate future.
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 10:43 pm
Long overdue, and by the way, it is a romantic adventure. This may be what is needed to fuel interest in the program. Money? They don't exactly pack suitcases with hundred dollar bills and shoot them off. It's all spent on the ground.
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Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 10:47 pm
The money is spent on the ground but it is not spent on science. You get more return for your dollar with projects like the Mars Rover than you do by putting people in space.
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Adrian
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 10:54 pm
Proof?
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Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2004 02:54 am
Adrian wrote:
Proof?


Your proof?
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2004 06:52 am
I think this is a campaign year stunt -- but I hope we start putting more money into human space exploration.

I do not consider it to be a waste of money.
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2004 07:08 am
I don't consider it a waste of money, but our spending priorities are too out of whack, in my estimation, to allow it to happen for at least a dozen or more years.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2004 07:21 am
edgarblythe wrote:
I don't consider it a waste of money, but our spending priorities are too out of whack, in my estimation, to allow it to happen for at least a dozen or more years.


I understand and appreciate what you are saying here, Edgar, but probably, there will never be a time when it look as though we can afford it.

In any case, the way this administration is spending money/giving tax cuts to the wealthy -- and putting off paying the piper -- in a dozen or more years we're going to be too busy filling out bankruptcy papers to worry about going to Hoboken, let alone the moon or Mars.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2004 07:35 am
As convincing a case against a new moon adventure as I've read yet:

Quote:
Easterblogg
12.05.03

OVER THE MOON: Maybe it's only a trial balloon, but if the White House seriously is considering announcing a return to the Moon, we'd better lock up the U.S. Treasury while there's still anything left.

Forget for a moment the purpose, just think about cost. A rudimentary, stripped-down Moon base and supplies might weigh 200 tons. (The winged "orbiter" part of the space shuttle weighs 90 tons unfueled, and it's cramped with food, oxygen, water, and power sufficient only for about two weeks.) Placing 200 tons on the Moon might require 400 tons of fuel and vehicle in low-Earth orbit, so that's 600 tons that need to be launched just for the cargo part of the Moon base. Currently, using the space shuttle it costs about $25 million to place a ton into low-Earth orbit. Thus means the bulk weight alone for a Moon base might cost $15 billion to launch: building the base, staffing it, and getting the staff there and back would be extra. Fifteen billion dollars is roughly equivalent to NASA's entire annual budget. Using existing expendable rockets might bring down the cargo-launch price, but add the base itself, the astronauts, their transit vehicles, and thousands of support staff on Earth and a ten-year Moon base program would easily exceed $100 billion. Wait, that's the cost of the space station, which is considerably closer. Okay, maybe $200 billion. Now, what would astronauts do from a Moon base?

Suit up and go outside

Collect rocks and check measuring devices

Go back inside

There's nothing on the scientific radar that could be done on the Moon by people that couldn't be done at one percent of the expense, and without risk, by automated devices. Note that in recent years, all the space programs of the world have shown little enthusiasm for sending even automated devices to the Moon, since there's little to do there other than pursue abstract knowledge of geology. (The Moon may have lots of "helium three," a substance that might someday power fusion reactors that make energy, but helium three won't matter to the Earth for decades.) A Moon base would actually be an impediment to any Mars mission, as stopping at the Moon would require the mission to expend huge amounts of fuel to land and take off but otherwise accomplish nothing, unless the master plan was to carry rocks to Mars.

NASA doesn't need a grand ambition, it needs a cheap, reliable means of getting back and forth to low-Earth orbit. Here's a twenty-first century vision for NASA: Cancel the shuttle, mothball the does-nothing space station, and use all the budget money the two would have consumed to develop an affordable means of space flight. Then we can talk about the Moon and Mars.
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