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US To Return To Moon ... and Beyond

 
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Jan, 2004 05:08 am
Let him first explore the space between his EARS, I'm tellin' ya.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Jan, 2004 05:12 am
Setanta wrote

Quote:
i do believe we should support science, and off-planet exploration--but it's never about that, it's always about political pork, its always about electioneering.


- agree. Glorified publicity stunt. (And a cover for the creeping militarisation of space). If man on the moon was really useful, it would never have been abandoned just because the Russians gave up on the idea.

Anyway the next man on the moon will be Chinese, not American. China really wants such a publicity coup to announce the arrival of New China for the new century. They have an active space program. They have decades of experience based on tried and tested (and superior) Russian designs.* Plus they are concerned about American domination of the new high ground of space. The Chinese will not sit passive whilst the Americans stick nuclear weapons in space.

* if anyone doubts this, do a little research on Russian combined cycle rocket engines.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Jan, 2004 05:52 am
Setanta and Steve and others have said it well, but I'd like to reinforce the point: the thing that really bugs me about this is that it's just dripping with cynicism and political opportunism.

If George Bush genuinely had a burning interest in space exploration it would be one thing, but it's pretty obvious he doesn't. Karl Rove was just throwing things against a wall named "visionary and inspirational", and this was what stuck.

You want cynical? How about an initial funding proposal of $12 billion? When Bush the Elder costed out a similar program in 1989 it came to $500 billion. If you adjust for inflation and add in the usual cost overruns that means we're looking at a price tag of oh, around a trillion bucks or so. Funny that Younger took such pains to avoid saying that.

"Spacecraft assembled and provisioned on the moon could escape its far lower gravity using far less energy and thus far less cost"? Give me a break. How does all this stuff get to the moon to be assembled in the first place? (Hint: it comes from a nearby planet with a famously large gravity quotient.)

The moon "contains raw materials that might be harvested and processed into rocket fuel or breathable air"? I can see the sign now: "The Halliburton Lunar Atmospheric Processor." (Do you remember what the mega-corporation in the movie "Aliens", the one that wanted to weaponize an Alien, was also in the business of ? 'Atmospheric processing'. Rolling Eyes I'm tellin' ya, these guys watch too many movies...)

In the end I guess David Appell expresses my thoughts better than I can:

Quote:


If we were going to spend a trillion dollars on big science -- something I could easily support -- there are loads of better places for it than this.

What a wasted opportunity. What a bullshit political ploy.

And another thing: have you ever noticed how Bush is always proposing legislation that doesn't really have an impact until he's safely re-elected -- or long out of office?

Tax cuts, No Child Left Behind, the Medicare prescription benefit...add this to the list.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Jan, 2004 05:56 am
In find it interesting that the idiots propose scrapping the space shuttle program, when we patently do not have booster rockets of the reliability and payload capacity of the Russian models. We could conceivably lift necessary components of Georgie's fantasy exploration craft to low earth orbit with the shuttle, assemble them, and a way we go. As it stands right now, though, we don't have an on-going solid fuel, mult-stage rocket program, so i see this largely as an exercise in fantasy on the part of the Shrub and company. I also note that the usual suspects have not shown up in this thread to defend the Prez in this fairy-tale adventure. Could be that all of this does not play so well with his constituency.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Jan, 2004 08:42 am
Quote:
Spacecraft assembled and provisioned on the moon could escape its far lower gravity uing far less energy


this is not quite as ridiculous as it sounds.

A fair proportion of a rocket's mass is fuel. And you have to use fuel to lift the fuel.

So if you make it from lunar materials e.g. produce hydrogen and oxygen by electrolysis of lunar water (keep fingers crossed there is some), then it would make sense to launch a Mars mission from the Moon.

But you would need a power source on the moon to do the requisite materials processing. And there is only one source that gives sufficient power in a relatively compact package, and that's nuclear fission.

How the Lunar Environmental Movement (LEM) would cope with this I don't know. Its going to raise all sorts of issues. Who owns the Moon? or Mars for that matter. Did Neil Armstrong leave behind a little plaque claiming all Lunar Territories in the name of the United States? Should the moon be declared a nuclear (sorry George I meant nooklar) free zone?

Its a stupid giga-buck (trillion = 1*10 power 12 ?) excercise oh my god giga-buck GB george Bush...it all fits now.

Its all a deliberate waste of money to stabalise the dollar. The US government has been printing dollars like fury. But America, uniquely can get away with this without causing run away inflation because the dollar is the world reserve currency, and its tied to the US economy and in particular oil. Now Saddam started pricing oil exports in euros....no dont get me on that one again.

But you can't get away from the fact that there are an awful lot of dollars sloshing about which must be building up long term inflationary pressures. So what better but to waste a few (quite a lot actually) on this "noble" or madcap adventure? Help, is there a rocket science economist in the house?
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Jan, 2004 08:57 am
Fly me to the moon
And let me play among the stars
Let me see what Spring is like
On Jupiter and Mars . . .
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Jan, 2004 03:02 pm
Cool

http://www.google.com/logos/mars_rover.gif
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Jan, 2004 03:51 pm
I don't know, if this was already posted earlier (and THIS time I don't want to read back the pages), but wayback in 1959

http://www.astronautix.com/graphics/h/horiz88.jpg

A U.S. ARMY STUDY FOR THE ESTABLISHMENT
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Jan, 2004 04:59 pm
Long Overdue
33% [ 9 ]
A Waste Of Resources
33% [ 9 ]
A Campaign Stunt
18% [ 5 ]
Not Going To Happen
14% [ 4 ]

Total Votes : 27



very negative. I'm sure it will be an absolutely fabulous waste of money.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Jan, 2004 10:41 pm
Appearing on MSNBC's "Scarborough Country," Florida Congressman Tom Feeney said:

Quote:


And a bit less serious opinion (not the distinguished Congressman's), from the same link:

Quote:
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jan, 2004 04:35 am
Paul Krugman, in today's otherwise unrelated Op-Ed column, makes a good practical suggestion:

Quote:
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 Jan, 2004 05:02 am
Fascinating link Walter thanks

I think cutting out China has a large part of Bush's desire to get back on the moon. Project Horizon made it quite clear that military considerations predominated from the outset of the "space race". As soon as the Russians gave up, the US could take its time. But now China is coming up on the rails...

From the 1959 memorandum

Quote:
The full extent of the military potential cannot be predicted, but it is probable that observation of the earth and space vehicles from the moon will prove to be highly advantageous. By using a moon-to- earth base line, space surveillance by triangulation promises great range and accuracy. The presently contemplated earth-based tracking., and control network will be inadequate for the deep space operations contemplated. Military communications may be greatly improved by the use of a moon-based relay station. The employment of moon-based weapons systems against earth or space targets may prove to be feasible and desirable. Moon-based military power will be a strong deterrent to war because of the extreme difficulty, from the enemy point of view, of eliminating our ability to retaliate. Any military operations on the moon will be difficult to counter by the enemy because of the difficulty of his reaching the moon, if our forces arc already present and have means of countering a landing or of neutralising any hostile forces that have landed. The situation is reversed if hostile forces are permitted to arrive first. They can militarily counter our landings and attempt to deny us politically the use of their property.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2004 06:02 pm
Here we go: Nasa evidently can't pretend to pursue Busholini's Grand Vision and pay for actual science at the same time. Consequently, they're shutting down the actual science, the Hubble telescope being the first victim.

It's depressing.

Today, the New York Times wrote:

January 17, 2004
NASA Cancels Trip to Supply Hubble, Sealing Early Doom
By DENNIS OVERBYE

Savor those cosmic postcards while you can. The National Aeronautics and Space Administration decreed an early death yesterday to one of its flagship missions and most celebrated successes, the Hubble Space Telescope.

In a midday meeting at the Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Md., two days after President Bush ordered NASA to redirect its resources toward human exploration of the Moon and Mars, the agency's administrator, Sean O'Keefe, told the managers of the space telescope that there would be no more shuttle visits to maintain it.

A visit by astronauts to install a couple of the telescope's scientific instruments and replace the gyroscopes and batteries had been planned for next year. Without any more visits, the telescope, the crown jewel of astronomy for 10 years, will probably die in orbit sometime in 2007, depending on when its batteries or gyroscopes fail for good.

"It could die tomorrow, it could last to 2011," said Dr. Steven Beckwith, director of the Space Telescope Institute on the Johns Hopkins University campus in Baltimore. Dr. Beckwith said he and his colleagues were devastated.

At a news conference last night, Dr. John M. Grunsfeld, the agency's chief scientist and an astronaut who has been to the Hubble two times, called the the telescope the "best marriage of human spaceflight and science."

"It is a sad day that we have to announce this," Dr. Grunsfeld added.

As the news flashed around the world by e-mail, other astronomers joined the Hubble team in their shock. Dr. David N. Spergel, an astronomer at Princeton and a member of a committee that advises NASA on space science, called it a "double whammy" for astronomy. Not only was a telescope being lost, but $200 million worth of instruments that had been built to be added in the later shuttle mission will also be left on the ground, Dr. Spergel said.

Dr. Garth Illingworth, an astronomer at the University of California at Santa Cruz who is also on the advisory committee, said, "I think this is a mistake," noting that the Hubble was still doing work at the forefront of science.

Dr. Tod Lauer, of the National Optical Astronomy Observatories in Tucson, said, "This is a pretty nasty turn of events, coming immediately on the heels of `W's' endorsement of space exploration."

The demise of the Hubble will leave astronomers with no foreseeable prospect of a telescope in space operating primarily at visible wavelengths. The announcement also precludes hopes that astronomers had of using the Hubble in tandem with the James Webb Space Telescope, scheduled for launching in 2011 and which is being designed for infrared wavelengths, to study galaxies at the far reaches of time.

Ground-based telescopes like the 10-meter-diameter Kecks on Mauna Kea are growing more powerful, and the use of adaptive optics to tune out the blurring effects of the atmosphere lets them approach the resolution of the Hubble in limited cases. But they are blinded by the atmosphere to ultraviolet and infrared light.

Floating above the murky atmosphere of Earth, the Hubble, launched in 1990, has had the ability to see into the depths of space and time with unprecedented clarity, glimpsing galaxies that were under construction when the universe was half its present age and helping cosmologists chart how the mysterious "dark energy" has gradually taken over the expansion of the universe.

Periodic service calls by shuttle astronauts repaired a series of early problems and have continually refurbished the telescope and kept it at the fore of cosmic research. The mission next year would have left the telescope in good shape to continue working through the end of the decade, when NASA plans to bring it down. But the service missions are expensive, more than $500 million each.

More important, NASA officials say, after the Columbia catastrophe a year ago, the missions are also considered dangerous. The shuttles do not carry enough fuel to reach the space station in case of trouble.

In its report on the shuttle disaster last summer, the Columbia Accident Investigation Board recommended that there be a way to inspect and repair the shuttle's heat shields, which were damaged after the Columbia lifted off. That is easily conducted if the craft is at the space station, but not at the Hubble.

In his remarks to the astronomers on Friday, according to those present, Mr. O'Keefe referred to that recommendation and said it would be too difficult to develop that ability for a single trip to the telescope.

Given enough time, NASA might have developed the tools to do it, Dr. Grunsfeld said, but the decision to retire the shuttles in 2010 foreclosed that possibility.

"Cost was not an issue," he said.

Many astronomers, however, noting that the decision came on the heels of Mr. Bush's directive to NASA to reallocate $11 billion of its resources over the next five years into returning people to the Moon, said money was doubtless also a consideration.

Presenting the decision as a safety-related issue, the astronomers said, lessened the odds that it would be challenged, by, say NASA's Congressional overseers.

NASA is not completely off the hook as far as the Hubble is concerned. The agency is committed to bringing it back to Earth safely after its useful life ends. Until the Columbia accident, NASA had planned to retrieve the telescope with a shuttle and put it in the Smithsonian. Now the plan is to build a robotic rocket that would go up, attach itself to the telescope and fire its engine to brake Hubble out of orbit and drop it in the ocean.

Paradoxically, Dr. Spergel said, the cost of developing such a rocket, estimated at $300 million or more, would come out of the NASA astronomy budget. It is, he said, another double whammy.

One mission gets canceled, he said, and "what's our next mission, deorbit the telescope?"

For now, of course, the Hubble lives. Dr. Beckwith said: "We at the institute are devastated by the potential loss of Hubble. But we will do our absolute best to make the final years of its life the most glorious science you've ever seen."
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2004 08:40 pm
One of my favorite aspects of the program takes the first hit. Maybe it's reverse psychology. Let the public know a popular thing will die, hoping the public will rise up in protest.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jan, 2004 05:56 am
Thomas wrote:
Here we go: Nasa evidently can't pretend to pursue Busholini's Grand Vision and pay for actual science at the same time. Consequently, they're shutting down the actual science, the Hubble telescope being the first victim.

It's depressing.



People will always be able to find a reason to say that we should not make the move into space.

Some will say that we are wasting the money and "the poor" will suffer.

Some will say that we are wasting the money and "the environment" will suffer.

Some will say that we are wasting the money and "real science" will suffer.


It's depressing!
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jan, 2004 09:00 am
Its just bread and circuses for the masses.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jan, 2004 09:16 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Its just bread and circuses for the masses.



Humans will reach off this planet and travel elsewhere in the solar system and the cosmos...

...despite derision and the excuses people will throw in the way of doing so.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jan, 2004 09:36 am
Frank Apisa wrote:
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Its just bread and circuses for the masses.



Humans will reach off this planet and travel elsewhere in the solar system and the cosmos...

...despite derision and the excuses people will throw in the way of doing so.


"Panem et Circensus" was a mechanism of influential power over the Roman mass: a formula for the well-being of the population, and thus a big political strategy.

Some ideas of the Roman caesars seem to work excellent until today :wink:
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jan, 2004 10:22 am
I agree with those of you who believe we WILL go into space. Just now, it's embroiled in local politics and can't get off the ground. Let Europe, China, Japan or Russia make bold moves that have a chance at succeeding and America will decide to try and beat them. I would welcome an orderly transition to manned programs, not by just dumping out everything we have, but by evolved steps.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jan, 2004 11:27 am
I agree, Edgar. I'm not convinced of the worthiness of the end goal, but if it's gonna be done, do it right. This is barely a week old and is already a mess.
0 Replies
 
 

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