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US To Return To Moon ... and Beyond

 
 
the prince
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2004 07:39 am
Do martians have WMD ?? Shocked
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2004 07:50 am
Well, some say that the reason we can't find any of the WMD that we know Saddam had in Iraq is cause he deviously sent them up there just in time ...

It must be said that the CIA had it be known that there is no reasonable evidence to suggest this was so. But as VP Cheney said in an interview with Russert - we simply don't know if this has happened ... we are not sure, in any case, that it hasn't happened. So the possibility can't be discounted, when judging on the case the administration made about Iraqi WMD and the need for war.

A neoconservative thinktank is, in fact, now drafting an appeal to the president to not pander to reluctant allies, and bravely move on to effect regime change on the moon - and if necessary, Mars too. What is needed is a comprehensive strategy on the US role in defending democracy, freedom and security in outer space.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2004 08:09 am
nimh wrote:
As convincing a case against a new moon adventure as I've read yet:

Quote:
Easterblogg
12.05.03

OVER THE MOON: Maybe it's only a trial balloon, but if the White House seriously is considering announcing a return to the Moon, we'd better lock up the U.S. Treasury while there's still anything left.

Forget for a moment the purpose, just think about cost. A rudimentary, stripped-down Moon base and supplies might weigh 200 tons. (The winged "orbiter" part of the space shuttle weighs 90 tons unfueled, and it's cramped with food, oxygen, water, and power sufficient only for about two weeks.) Placing 200 tons on the Moon might require 400 tons of fuel and vehicle in low-Earth orbit, so that's 600 tons that need to be launched just for the cargo part of the Moon base. Currently, using the space shuttle it costs about $25 million to place a ton into low-Earth orbit. Thus means the bulk weight alone for a Moon base might cost $15 billion to launch: building the base, staffing it, and getting the staff there and back would be extra. Fifteen billion dollars is roughly equivalent to NASA's entire annual budget. Using existing expendable rockets might bring down the cargo-launch price, but add the base itself, the astronauts, their transit vehicles, and thousands of support staff on Earth and a ten-year Moon base program would easily exceed $100 billion. Wait, that's the cost of the space station, which is considerably closer. Okay, maybe $200 billion. Now, what would astronauts do from a Moon base?

Suit up and go outside

Collect rocks and check measuring devices

Go back inside

There's nothing on the scientific radar that could be done on the Moon by people that couldn't be done at one percent of the expense, and without risk, by automated devices. Note that in recent years, all the space programs of the world have shown little enthusiasm for sending even automated devices to the Moon, since there's little to do there other than pursue abstract knowledge of geology. (The Moon may have lots of "helium three," a substance that might someday power fusion reactors that make energy, but helium three won't matter to the Earth for decades.) A Moon base would actually be an impediment to any Mars mission, as stopping at the Moon would require the mission to expend huge amounts of fuel to land and take off but otherwise accomplish nothing, unless the master plan was to carry rocks to Mars.

NASA doesn't need a grand ambition, it needs a cheap, reliable means of getting back and forth to low-Earth orbit. Here's a twenty-first century vision for NASA: Cancel the shuttle, mothball the does-nothing space station, and use all the budget money the two would have consumed to develop an affordable means of space flight. Then we can talk about the Moon and Mars.



Yeah, but it's there. And you know how humans are. If it is there, we wanna go.

But maybe the Chinese will do it.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2004 08:47 am
All in all, I gotta say the arguments against expanding space exploration are rather similar to the arguments against granting Columbus the means to make his westward voyage 500 some years ago.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2004 09:01 am
timberlandko wrote:
All in all, I gotta say the arguments against expanding space exploration are rather similar to the arguments against granting Columbus the means to make his westward voyage 500 some years ago.


Yep!

I do understand the concerns -- and I do want to spend money on problems here on Earth -- but we are gonna explore space and now is as good a time as ever.

AND we often get general benefits from the $'s we spend to make these moves in space, because lots of it goes into research that provide us with all sorts of new things.

(Unfortunately, cell phones being one of them!)
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2004 09:09 am
With all the problems that need solution here on the "mother planet" why would anyone in his right mind want to indulge in such asinine projects. Why not expend the money and research effort to develop an alternate source of non polluting energy before we either run out of fossil fuel or pollute ourselves to death or in the cure of the many diseases that plague us or?
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2004 09:13 am
au1929 wrote:
With all the problems that need solution here on the "mother planet" why would anyone in his right mind want to indulge in such asinine projects.


Because such short sightedness would be even more asinine.


Quote:
Why not expend the money and research effort to develop an alternate source of non polluting energy before we either run out of fossil fuel or pollute ourselves to death or in the cure of the many diseases that plague us or?


There are always "other things" on which we can spend money. Why not spend the money we are using to blow other people up for the purposes you mentioned -- and still make strides in further human exploration of space?
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2004 09:20 am
But how is an argument to send a robot to the moon instead of a human an argument against space exploration?

I'm all for space exploration! My life, in not too big of a stretch, depends on it, as it is my husband's field. A member of my wedding party is part of the team responsible for the current Mars rover, Spirit. Space exploration = good!

But does it need to be manned? Especially to the moon, where we've already been? We've proven we can do it, OK, props to the USA, excellent. Why do we need to prove it again? To say "in your face!" to the folks who say the first moon landing was a hoax?

Again, I see the glamour quotient, I see how that helps, I don't think manned space flight is going to stop anytime soon. But the moon... why?
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blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2004 09:36 am
I voted waste, but would liked to have voted campaign stunt as well......this expenditure would be like me taking the money to landscape and maintain my property and putting in a pool at the North Pole with it instead...a cool idea maybe, but not as important as taking care of my home.

Maybe they've found oil reserves up there.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2004 09:39 am
sozobe wrote:
But how is an argument to send a robot to the moon instead of a human an argment against space exploration?


It's not -- and it is not intended to be.

We are humans -- and we want to go there -- no matter where "there" is. And if we ever intend to get humans to Mars and beyond -- AND WE DO INTEND TO GET HUMANS TO MARS AND BEYOND -- more trips to the moon makes lots of sense.

Sort of like learning to crawl before attempting to walk.


Quote:
I'm all for space exploration! My life, in not too big of a stretch, depends on it, as it is my husband's field. A member of my wedding party is part of the team responsible for the current Mars rover, Spirit. Space exploration = good!

But does it need to be manned?



YES, YES, YES...a thousand times YES!

That simply is how it is going to be -- because that is the way humans work!


Quote:
Especially to the moon, where we've already been?



That is like saying "we've had sex once, why do we need to do it again?"

We sent men up to circle our planet before going to the moon. We didn't do it just once or twice or three times -- we did it many, many times so that we could learn the lessons needed to put someone on the moon and return that person safely to Earth.

In order to begin the human exploration of space -- we gotta do it.

I really have trouble understanding why, considering your exposure to the people you've mentioned, why all this is not out there for you regularly.



Quote:
We've proven we can do it, OK, props to the USA, excellent. Why do we need to prove it again? To say "in your face!" to the folks who say the first moon landing was a hoax?


Of course not! We need to keep doing it for the reasons I've already mentioned. And you should be able to see that it is something we should be doing.



Quote:
Again, I see the glamour quotient, I see how that helps, I don't think manned space flight is going to stop anytime soon. But the moon... why?


Because it makes lots more sense to go back to the moon several more times before trying anything more ambitious.
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blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2004 09:43 am
I humbly suggest that before we spend money on transportation to the Moon we figure out how to get a commercial airline flight from point a to point b without someone with a box cutter running it into a skyscraper.........
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2004 09:55 am
Frank, all of the people I am exposed to in this area -- I can't think of one exception -- think that manned space flight is a silly waste, a palliative to the masses. Ooh, an astronaut, lookie! They realize that it is part of what gets them money and what may have interested them when they were in elementary school, part of why they went into the field. So that is a genuine benefit.

But the scientific value is nebulous to none.

Quote:
I really have trouble understanding why, considering your exposure to the people you've mentioned, why all this is not out there for you regularly.


Did you note that what I said about what humans DO and then article that nimh quoted were quite similar? That is because it is repeated, often, among those people. It's common knowledge.

Note, I am NOT saying that space exploration, in general, should stop. The Mars rover for example is wonderful. Hubble is wonderful. We get all kinds of information about what is out there. We have the space station -- it's wonderfulness is somewhat arguable, but it's there, it's horribly rickety, it needs funding, it is a target for manned space flight and all kinds of things that need to be learned if we're going to be sending people out there, way out there, like the effects of long-term exposure to zero gravity.

Three main points:

1.) I recognize that there's all of this glamour surrounding manned space flights, and we're probably not going to stop that, nor should we,

2.) even though the actual scientific value of manned space flight is nebulous.

3.) If manned space flight beyond the moon is a goal, I think there are many more practical ways to do it than sending people to the moon, and that the current proposal is more about glamour than about practicality.

edit: added "zero" to the sentence "long-term exposure to gravity." Heh. Embarrassed
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2004 10:18 am
I really don't want to argue with you about this, sozobe, but we humans are going to leave this planet and explore space AS HUMAN BEINGS -- not with robots.

That is the way humans have always operated -- and that seems almost definitely the way they will operate in the future.

It is going to happen -- and anyone "in the business" who doesn't realize that probably ought to be doing something else.

Why not start it now?
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2004 10:21 am
Why start it impractically?

Again, I am not saying it shouldn't happen -- I just doubt that the stated goal of manned space flight beyond the moon is best furthered by going to the moon as opposed to other options.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2004 10:32 am
Ok!
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2004 10:35 am
:-)
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2004 10:35 am
Frank
Quote:
There are always "other things" on which we can spend money.
Priorities, Logic says you attack the most pressing problems first. There is no pressing need if any to establish a base on the moon or to send man to Mars.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2004 10:39 am
au1929 wrote:
Frank
Quote:
There are always "other things" on which we can spend money.
Priorities, Logic says you attack the most pressing problems first. There is no pressing need if any to establish a base on the moon or to send man to Mars.



Yeah, but logic also says there will never be a pressing need to do it. Some of the things humans do -- are done despite the fact that there is no pressing need to do them.

They are just things we want to do.

Right?
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Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2004 10:55 am
timberlandko wrote:
All in all, I gotta say the arguments against expanding space exploration are rather similar to the arguments against granting Columbus the means to make his westward voyage 500 some years ago.


First of all the arguments against funding Columbus were quite valid. He had underestimated the size of the earth by half and any competent 15th century mathematician or geographer could and did demonstrate that. He was trying to get to China remember? ...and he never did.

Secondly no one is arguing against space exploration. We have on Mars right now a sterling example of what can be accomplished. It is just the means that are contended and it is the opinion of the people who make a living at this, that humans in space, given our present capabilities, are a lousy way to do it.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Jan, 2004 03:38 pm
Frank
There is however a pressing need to develop a non polluting or at least a minimally polluting fuel source. There is a difference between what we would like to do and what we must do. Common sense says you do what needs to be done before you indulge in satisfying ones ego. Sending man to Mars is an ego trip..
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