6
   

Did Neville Chamberlain cause WW2?

 
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Fri 10 Jun, 2011 01:28 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
I think there is some basis for the popular treatment of Chamberlain, and the realpolitic he practiced at Munich, as at least the symbol (if not the scapegoat) for Allied lassitude between Hitler's assumption of asolute power in Germany and the shameful surrender of Czechoslovakia's sovereignty (and territory) at Munich.

There is lots of anecdotal evidence suggesting that early firm acrtion by France and Britain might have, by calling Hitler's bluffs, emboldened reactionary forces in Germany and limited or even eliminated his power. There were, however, reasons for that apparent lassitude. European opinion (and fears) had long been divided over the relative dangers (and in some quarters, benefits) of two competing totalitarian alternatives - Soviet Communism and Hitler's Nazis. The long, bloody (Red White) civil war that followed the Bolshevic revolution may have dulled popular reaction to the Soviet atrocities attendant to the "harvesting of the bourgeois", various purges, and the imposition of collectivization on Ukranian peasants. Many throughout western Europe saw communism as an anecdote to economic & social inequality - hence the Popular Front government in France and widespread support for an increasingly Marxist Republican government in Spain. There were also widespread reactionary forces in Europe that saw Soviet Communisn and the world revolution it supported (to varying degrees) in the COMINTERN as the chief danger. Indeed that struggle was the dynamic that enabled Hitler's ascent to power in Germany. The Anglo French apparent lassitude in Hitler's early years should be seen in the light of the semi paralysis that attended these divisions within the Western powers (and, as well, their exhaustion after a very narrow victory in WWI).

On paper the combined Czech, French and British military forces outweighed those of Germany by a considerable margin, and that too feeds the popular conception of the Munich agreement. After Munich the British were clearly preparing for war with Germany, but public attitudes there and in France particularly were still divided by war weariness and the semi paralysis noted above - hence the phony war after Hitler's subsequent invasion of Poland.

Even these common speculations are subject to disagreement. The events of history are often clear in retrospect, but very muddy in prospect. The annals of history offer many, diverse lessons. There's usually one there to support the argument of every party in a dispute.
Yes
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Jun, 2011 01:55 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
ON paper the French alone had a far better military machine then the Germans with better tanks and more tanks and at least equal planes.

It did not stop them from being overrun in weeks with the British being driven off the continent in complete disarray.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Jun, 2011 05:00 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:
ON paper the French alone had a far better military machine then the Germans with better tanks and more tanks and at least equal planes.

It did not stop them from being overrun in weeks with the British being driven off the continent in complete disarray.
Hitler outsmarted the French.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Jun, 2011 09:57 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

ON paper the French alone had a far better military machine then the Germans with better tanks and more tanks and at least equal planes.

It did not stop them from being overrun in weeks with the British being driven off the continent in complete disarray.

The Frech arguably had a better tank than the Panzer Mk4 with the much heavier Char. However they used them as mobile artillery for the infantry and were easily outflanked and beaten by the Germans. The French Air Force was much inferior to the Germans in the number and quantity of their aircraft and the training and fighting spirit of their pilots. They did very little to slow the German advance. France was badly scarred by its heavy losses in WWI and chose simply to sit out WWII.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Jun, 2011 10:08 pm
@georgeob1,
France if anything had the advantage in military equipments and you are right their tactics and leadership was what kill them not their equipments.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jun, 2011 02:55 am
@georgeob1,
The Germans weren't using the Pzkw IV in 1940 in France in any significant numbers (fewer than 150 had been produced by May, 1940), because its performance in Poland lead them make significant chassis alterations, and the performance of the 37 mm guns against British Matildas in France was so poor. The Mark IV model with the 50 mm gun which was to become the German main battle tank for years, until it met heavy columns of Soviet tanks, went into service in September, 1940, after the fall of France. As well, the French fighter aircraft of 1940 could perform with the Messerschmidt Bf 109.

The problem with both forces was in their deployment, which you have alluded to with regard to their armor. They were deployed in a supporting role for infantry divisions, many of which were themselves "static" divisions with no motorized transport of their own. Even Guderian saw his Mark IVs in a supporting role, and many of the early models were armed with a 75 mm howitzer for use as mobile artillery. Guderian looks more brilliant in hindsight, though, as is so often the case with military men. The British Matildas and Valentines, slow, lumbering beasts, were almost impervious to the German AP rounds from their 37 mm guns, and were impervious to the HE from the 75 mm howitzers. This lead to the improvements in the Mark IV which made it a good, if not a great main battle tank for about a year--until they encountered the Soviet armor in significant numbers.

Guderian saw two things which were to have a strong influence on his thinking, and on the design of armored fighting vehciles. One was that the earlier Pzkw Is and IIs, which used gasoline engines, were able to fill up at French and Belgian service stations and roar on down the road, making a reality the mobility which Guderian had previously only dreamed about--and the static defense of Belgium and France showed how fatal it was not to at least be prepared to be mobile.

But when the Matildas and Valentines could get a good shot at the Mark Is & IIs, they often "brewed up" like roman candles. So the other thing the Germans learned was to stop using gasoline engines in their armor, and to switch to diesel. A diesel-powered tank could still catch fire, but the crew had a chance to escape, and if you could hold the battlefield, the hulk could be salvaged either to be rebuilt or to provide parts to scavange.

What doomed German armor eventually is that they became "over-engineered" with the Tigers and Panthers in response to Soviet armor, so that keeping them maintained in service became a nightmare; and the simple matter of the logistics of providing fuel for such behemoths proved impossible. When German engineers went to the Soviet Union to look at the T-34, the front-line armor officers begged them to just build that tank for them. Instead, they got Tiger tanks, and there were never enough. Between 1940 and 1958, the Soviets built more than 80,000 T-34 tanks. The Americans built more than 50,000 Sherman tanks. In Normandy, the German soldiers would say that a Tiger tank could kill ten Shermans before they got him--and that the "Amis" always had at least 11. The Tigers and the Panthers were engineered beyond the capacity of Germany's industrial base to manufacture and maintain in sufficient numbers.

De Gaulle, whom it seems everyone in World War II on the Allied side loved to hate, constantly carped before the war about the dispersal of armored units and air units--he called for their concentration to make them more effective. However, that concept was anathema to the static defense in which the French military had become intellectually invested, so he was ignored. What do young cavalry officers know, anyway?
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Mon 13 Jun, 2011 05:43 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
The Americans built more than 50,000 Sherman tanks.
In Normandy, the German soldiers would say that a Tiger tank could
kill ten Shermans before they got him--and that the "Amis" always had at least 11.
Yea; thay said that.
American tankers called their Shermen "Ronsons"
known to lite right up the first time thay r struck.
Our fellows woud have liked to have better protection
(more armor & better firepower) from the Tiger's 88mm cannon,
and near 4 inch frontal armor. This was a conscious decision
from Roosevelt: that American tankers were expendable,
rather than giving them heavier armor and more powerful
guns on D-Day, like the 90mm cannon that eventually came along.

Its not as if the Tigers had been a big nazi mystery.
The Tigers had been in use since 1942 in Russia
and in North Africa, captured by both the Russians
and by the British Army; yet 6 months into 1944,
Roosevelt sent out American tankers to chase the Tigers
next to naked, armed with not much better that slingshots in those Shermen.
That was the grossest negligence
that cost many unnecessary American deaths; reprehensible.
Roosevelt was disloyal to his Armored troops.

How woud Roosevelt have liked to take that issue before the electorate ?

I 'm glad that we now have a different filosofy, with the superb
and magnificent Abrams tank.





David
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Mon 13 Jun, 2011 05:57 am
Here we go again with the idiotic partisan rant. So you think that Roosevelt, with everything else he had on his plate, ought to have taken over Leslie McNair's job. Your obsessional hatreds severely skew your view of the world. You'd never make it in a position of executive responsibility.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Jun, 2011 06:12 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
Here we go again with the idiotic partisan rant.
Your obsessional hatreds severely skew your view of the world.
I am empathizing with the unfortunate tankers that he sent to their unnecessarily early deaths
and with their families. Really: I 'd not have been content
in that circumstance KNOWING about the Tigers with their 88mm cannon,
almost immune from the gunfire of our Shermen.

Setanta wrote:
So you think that Roosevelt, with everything else he had on his plate,
ought to have taken over Leslie McNair's job.
Lessee, now: who 's successor was it that kept a sign on his desk
acknowledging that "the buck stops here" ??
Was Leslie McNair the Commander-in-Chief on 6/6/1944 ????



Setanta wrote:
You'd never make it in a position of executive responsibility.
I 'm thrilled that I don 't need to.





David
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2011 10:24 am
@OmSigDAVID,
If I'm not mistaken the Sherman tank used a light weight radial gasoline engine that was a variant of a then existing aircraft design. I suspect the decision to use it in mass production was made just as the Germans were learning the virtues of deisel engines and fuels. In addition, I suspect the logistical complexities of providing distinct, non-interchangable fuel types to a mass army to be supported overseas was also a factor in our choice of a gasoline engine.

The scale of the nearly worldwide conflict and the immediate demands of our then British & Soviet allies ror resupply & rearmament - in addition to our own, all made early choices for large scale mass production appear very important then. We made a lot of stuff then that couldn't compete well with the top line armaments of our enemies, including aircraft, ships and tanks, but over time our forces learned to compensate, use appropriate tactics and numbers to win. It was, from the start, a war of attrition, and we won.

We never deployed a carrier fighter that could outmaneuver a Japanese Zero in a dogfight, and only barely equalled their firepower with the F6F. However, our pilots fairly quickly learned to avoid dogfights and focus on slashing attacks and exploiting the Zero's lack of armor & self-sealing fuel tanks. Likewise our Sherman tank crews learned to use numbers to saturate German tank defenses and get behind the Tigers where their thinner armor did leave them vulnerable.

One could construct a similar argument to yours about the folly of the Germans who (in the case of their tanks) focused on very complex designs that they couldn't manufacture in the quantity required to resupply their armies.

panzade
 
  2  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2011 05:06 pm
@georgeob1,
yes...in a nutshell we were providing huge amounts of armaments to hundreds of countries around the world. There was no time to sift through complex designs.
Anybody who has read even one biography of Roosevelt can appreciate how difficult his job was.
OmSigDAVID
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2011 07:08 pm
@panzade,
panzade wrote:
yes...in a nutshell we were providing huge amounts of armaments to hundreds of countries around the world. There was no time to sift through complex designs.
Anybody who has read even one biography of Roosevelt can appreciate how difficult his job was.
Yeah, awww poor Roosevelt; he had it ruff.
If only he coud have taken a little time off
for a sweet vacation in Europe in a Sherman tank, while chasing Tigers.
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2011 08:20 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Well, you know he died before completing his fourth term so the job did kill him.
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2011 08:30 pm
@talk72000,
talk72000 wrote:
Well, you know he died before completing his fourth term so the job did kill him.
Maybe u think he'd still be with us, if he 'd not been elected ?
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  3  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2011 09:06 pm
No disrespect dave...but you sure are one ignorant son-of-a-bitch Wink
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2011 09:51 pm
@panzade,
panzade wrote:

yes...in a nutshell we were providing huge amounts of armaments to hundreds of countries around the world. There was no time to sift through complex designs.
Anybody who has read even one biography of Roosevelt can appreciate how difficult his job was.


His job and the tasks to which he led the country were indeed difficult. That, however, does not mean they were all wise or effective.

The evidence of history suggests that his public rhetoric was more effective in calming a distressed population after the economic collapse than were his economic policies and "New Deal" effective in achieving economic recovery. Things were very bad here in 1938 in what would now be called a double dip depression. It was our mobilization for war and the consequences of a world war that wiped out the economies and industrial capacity of all of our competitors that ultimately restored our economy.

We also now know that even as he promised to keep America out of the coming war, and reaffirming his (and his dog Falla's) hatred of war, he was conspiring with Churchil to get us in and actively positioning America as Japan's enemy, even in the face of opportunities to redirect their ambitions northward to their enemy in their 1905 war with Russia. He also harbored very dangerous illusions about the Soviet Union(which you will recall had joined with Nazi Germany to dismember Poland and seize the Baltic states. If you travel to Lithuania or Latvia or even Poland you will encounter a profoundly different interpretation of the events of those years.

Roosevelt wasn't the all wise saint you appear to suggest.
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  2  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2011 11:16 pm
re georgeob

The "double-dip recession" was due to Roosevelt listening to conservative economic voices and cutting back New Deal programs to present a balanced budget. The economy promptly started tanking again. Roosevelt canned the budget and went back to the New Deal and things started going up again.

You realize of course that what you are saying finally brought an end to the Depression (which is accurate), was in fact a huge economic stimulus program larger than Roosevelt coud get through conservative opposition to the New Deal(not that it was intended as that, but that in fact is what it was), massive deficit spending, and essentially a socialist command economy. All of which youy deplore, but which worked, while conservative economics just deepened the hole.
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2011 11:28 pm
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:

re georgeob

The "double-dip recession" was due to Roosevelt listening to conservative economic voices and cutting back New Deal programs to present a balanced budget. The economy promptly started tanking again. Roosevelt canned the budget and went back to the New Deal and things started going up again.

You realize of course that what you are saying finally brought an end to the Depression (which is accurate), was in fact a huge economic stimulus program larger than Roosevelt coud get through conservative opposition to the New Deal . . .
Yes: his stimulus program
was the Second World War
that he provoked with Japan.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Tue 14 Jun, 2011 11:31 pm
@panzade,
panzade wrote:
No disrespect dave...but you sure are one ignorant son-of-a-bitch Wink
Ignorant of WHAT, in particular, respectful Panzade ??
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  3  
Reply Wed 15 Jun, 2011 02:04 am
Roosevelt did not "provoke" a war with Japan. You are incapable of analyzing history because you are obsessed with a narrow and shallow, partisan-inspired view of historical events.
 

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