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Hitler: figurehead?

 
 
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 7 Jun, 2011 12:48 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta, the dispassionate "historian".
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 7 Jun, 2011 12:50 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
By the way, before this gets too far out of hand, and someone comes up with cheap courtroom tricks, listen to me try to cover my butt


Setanta: Making cynical political moves is no evidence of intelligence, just a lack of scruple.
0 Replies
 
hamilton
 
  0  
Reply Tue 7 Jun, 2011 07:02 pm
well, actually, what i meant, was, were all of his ideas his own.
my friend who watched some military channel, said that while in prison, his inmate had a tutor who visited, and may have influenced hitler into what he was doing. personally, i think its baloney. but this guy usually knows what he's talking about. im not saying he was a dumb figure head. he was, after all, a political genius, although a supremely evil one. i think that his ideas were his own. even before imprisonment, he spoke quite passionately against jews...
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jun, 2011 07:09 pm
@hamilton,
Quote:
Hitler returned from a military hospital to Munich in early 1919. There he underwent a Reichswehr sponsored course of systematic political education for demobilizing soldiers that featured Pan- German nationalism, antisemitism, and anti-socialism. These same themes were prominent in Bavarian politics following the repression of the Munich revolution of 1918-19. Because antisemitism had not played a notable part in Bavarian politics prior to the revolutionary disturbances, a Herr Adolf Gemlich was prompted to send an inquiry about the importance of the "Jewish question" to Captain Karl Mayr, the officer in charge of the Reichswehr News and Enlightenment Department in Munich. Mayr referred him to Hitler, who had distinguished himself in the above-mentioned course by the vehemence of his radical nationalist and antisemitic views, and by his oratorical talents. Hitler was already feeling his way toward a political career; four days before responding to Gemlich in the letter translated below, he had paid his first visit to the German Workers' Party (eventually renamed, the National Socialist Workers' Party) as a confidential agent of the Reichswehr. In the letter to Gemlich he appears anxious to establish his credentials as a knowledgeable and sober antisemite. Compared to the inflammatory mass-meeting oratory that he was soon to make his specialty, Hitler's rhetoric here is quite tame, stressing the need for a "rational" and "scientific" antisemitism. Some historians have interpreted the letter's call for the "irrevocable removal [Entfernung]" of the Jews from German life as a prefiguring of the Holocaust. But it is clear from the context and from later statements that, at this point, Hitler meant segregation or expulsion rather than systematic liquidation. The letter, Hitler's first explicitly political writing, impressed his Reichswehr superiors and he soon gained a reputation among radical rightist and socially respectable nationalist conservative groups as a man who could help inoculate the masses against revolution and whose antisemitic rhetoric could help discredit the democratic Weimar Republic. The letter may thus be seen as the launching of his political career. Source: Eberhard Jäckel (ed.), Hitler. Sämtliche Aufzeichnungen 1905-1924 (Stuttgart, 1980), pp. 88-90. Translated by Richard S. Levy.
Source

The above quote may be seen in context with this news:
Quote:
The birth of the Final Solution: Hitler's earliest letter which reveals his plans to exterminate Jews goes on display for the first time

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/06/07/article-2000448-0C7490E300000578-333_468x286.jpg
Source and full text
hamilton
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jun, 2011 07:13 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
wow. he went a pretty long way from segregation and expulsion...
0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  0  
Reply Tue 7 Jun, 2011 07:20 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
I may be wrong but I believe at first he wanted to expel the Jews but no country wanted them. Boatloads of Jews were turned away by America even.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jun, 2011 07:25 pm
@hamilton,
he types fast
seriously fast
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jun, 2011 11:14 pm
@hamilton,
hamilton wrote:
well, actually, what i meant, was, were all of his ideas his own.
my friend who watched some military channel, said that while in prison, his inmate had a tutor who visited, and may have influenced hitler into what he was doing. personally, i think its baloney. but this guy usually knows what he's talking about. im not saying he was a dumb figure head. he was, after all, a political genius, although a supremely evil one. i think that his ideas were his own. even before imprisonment, he spoke quite passionately against jews...
Mr. Hamilton: Figurehead for WHAT??





David
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Jun, 2011 04:14 am
So, in fact, you've just stated your question incorrectly. You're not asking if he were a figurehead (although you may have wrongly considered the term appropriate), but rather, whether or not his ideas were original. To that, i would answer definitely not.
hamilton
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Jun, 2011 06:00 am
@OmSigDAVID,
the nazi party, his inmates tutor. my friend believes that he was just their spokesperson, their orator, not the brains. it makes no sense to me, though, because he was the one who created the party.
hamilton
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Jun, 2011 06:02 am
@Setanta,
well, yes, i did state it incorrectly. but it doesnt make sense to me to say that his ideas werent his own, because even before he went to prison and wrote his book, he hated jews, and sought power.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Jun, 2011 06:48 am
@hamilton,
Hating Jews and seeking power are ancient practices, and certainly not original to Hitler.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Jun, 2011 06:48 am
@hamilton,
Hitler did not create the Nazi party.

Read this passage from the Wikipedia article on the Nazi Party.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Jun, 2011 07:08 am
@Setanta,
Not only Wikipedia reports such: there's a lot of evidence (e.g. the original sources, newspaper reports from that time et. al.) which give clear evidence about it ....
0 Replies
 
hamilton
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Jun, 2011 07:47 am
@Setanta,
oh. oops.
il shut up for now...
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Jun, 2011 08:09 am
In 1918, there was armed revolution in the streets, and much of it was socialist in character--especially from members of the fleet. The DAP was one such socialist group. Hitler was sent by the Bavarian army command to gather intelligence on the DAP after Drexler established a branch in Munich. Hitler saw an opportunity, joined the party, and then took over. His "putsch" in Munich was a rather stupid effort, but he was clever, in a scumbag sort of way, in surrounding himself with useful characters. Two examples of this are Röhm and Himmler, both of whom joined Hitler in the Beer Hall Putsch. Röhm had been a Freikorps member and had helped to put down the Red Republic in Munich. He was a co-founder of the Sturmabteilung, the SA, a sort of Nazi militia. He joined the DAP in 1919, i believe shortly before Hitler did.

Himmler served under Röhm and participated in the Beer Hall Putsch. He was already a believer in the racial superiority of the "Aryan" race, and promulgated the Nazi's racist propaganda.

Hermann Göring was a genuine war hero, the protege of Manfred von Richtoffen, and his successor in the command of the "Flying Circus" after the Red Baron was killed. He was an early proponent of the "stab in the back" myth, even before joining the NSDAP. When he did join, he was made commander of the SA, because of the éclat he brought as a war hero with 22 confirmed "kills" in the air.

Men like Martin Bormann, Rudolph Hess and Joseph Goebbels all contributed to the character of the NSDAP, and in particular weened it away from the socialist character which Hitler largely ignored. While Hitler was in prison, the party was controlled by Gregor Strasser who was a fervent believer in socialism, but Hitler didn't really care about that, and Strasser was an organizational genius. But the Chancellor Schleicher enlisted him in an attempt to split the NSDAP and prevent Hitler from coming to power, and then Strasser's days were numbered. He was arrested during the "Night of the Long Knives" and is believed to have been murdered by either Gestapo of SS members.

The Nazis with whom the world is familiar were the creation of many personalities--but Hitler remains the important personality because he always had his "eyes on the prize." Several people such as Schleicher and von Papen thought they could manipulate and use Hitler, but they were all mistaken.

Hitler was certainly no figurehead.
hamilton
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Jun, 2011 08:11 am
@Setanta,
that's what i thought.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Jun, 2011 08:52 am
@Setanta,
Fine; Hitler was no figurehead. But, you understand, that from my perspective, the thread's question is just part of the continuing "red herring," regarding the "audience" the Nazis had for their Teutonic opera, of sorts. Could this set of actors have been successful in many other countries, or was there something intrinsically different about the Germanic culture in the first half of the 20th century, specifically after the weaning away from liberalism, after the failed revolution of 1848, and the drift to the right under Bismarck and then the Kaiser? In effect, was Hitler the last needed ingredient, after Bismarck and the Kaiser to bring the German people to their "climax"?

It takes two to tango, it is said. And, I believe history needs its prerequisites to come to a specific fruition.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Jun, 2011 04:06 pm
@hamilton,
hamilton wrote:
well, yes, i did state it incorrectly. but it doesnt make sense to me to say that his ideas werent his own,
because even before he went to prison and wrote his book, he hated jews, and sought power.
Yet, he had friendly relations with Jews before he entered politics.

Hitler said that when he won his Iron Cross,
it was the happiest day of his life.

Lt. Hugo Gutmann was Hitler's immediate superior officer
from January 29 to August 31, 1918. His military papers were preserved,
and they show that he was born on November 19, 1880 in Nuremberg. He stated his religion to be Jewish.

Hitler got his beloved Iron Cross upon the recommendation of Lt. Hugo Gutmann.

Hitler was an ingrate.





David


VALTUI
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2011 12:27 pm
@hamilton,
One wonderes if it is even possible to discuss the subject of Hitler at all in a sober and rational way, given the mountains of emotional rubblish and volumes of anti-German political propoganda out there. The assumption that AH was only a figurehead shows how much naivite there is about this chapter in European history.

In order for anyone, especially a non German, to begin to understand who Hitler was and what he was, one must immerse onesself in the historical events surrounding the Hitler phenomenon.

Look at the basic facts: He was not a university professor, nor a great scientists nor inventor. He was a common "man of the people". A soldier from the World War and one of the millions of resentfull Germans who had found themselves in a country deprived of its sovereignty; its ability do defend itself with restrictions imposed on it by former enemies; in acountry in the midst of unimaginable political and economic chaos.

Hitler started out as a polital agitator. He became the spokesman for millions who were not happy with conditions of and results of the Versailles restrictions. His ability to put into words all the resentments, fears and anger which was simmering in the hearts of millions of Germans in the 1920s and 1930s put him on the crest of a rising political tide.

Germany's misery was causing many to turn to Communism. Hitlers party was the only one that assured the German people they would fight the Communists.

Clearly he had backing from Germanys Military Industrial Complex, but his swift victory over France in just 3 weeks, impressed millions who had suffered through 4 years of bloody trench warfare in World War One.

He may not have been a military genius, and he ultimately lost the war for Germany, but he was certainly a lot more than just a "figurehead".
0 Replies
 
 

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