18
   

Do you find this racist?

 
 
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Sat 4 Jun, 2011 11:27 pm
@msolga,
just Naomi Campbell? She has quite a history.

I have no idea what is at the heart of this episode, cannot even guess, and advertising is an interest of mine. Sounds like what we used to call Madison Avenue doing some ******* off. Or similar words.

I will venture to say that I think she should have been consulted and compensated, if she wasn't, and if she wasn't, the ad/media thing was exceptionally invasive.
joefromchicago
 
  2  
Reply Sun 5 Jun, 2011 12:58 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

Quote:
identifying someone by their skin color is not racist. We are all different colors. If I need to describe someone, point them out or distinctly identify one person from another, our description of them will include their skin color. thats not racist.

You know, Joe, I have seen sanctimonious criticisms from US posters here directed at people from other countries about their "racism".
Sometimes (from the perspective of the folk in the countries on the receiving end of the criticism) US posters have been quite wrong, having next to no insight into the cultural context of what they have been criticizing.
Sorry, but that's the way I & quite a few others have seen it in the past.
I might agree with you on this advertisement if the product was called "diva".
But it wasn't.
And the advertisements included her name.
Which left the public to make whatever of the connotation between Campbell & chocolate.
I maintain my view that the advertisement reflected poor judgment on the part of Kraft/Cadbury. It was just plain silly.
And the fact that Kraft immediately withdrew the advertisement after the first adverse comments suggests that they recognized it was a mistake in the UK context, too.
I have absolutely no doubt that if a prominent African American "celebrity" was treated in the same way as Naomi Campbell was, in a US chocolate advertising campaign, that there'd be quite a few more people here upset by it.

You're responding to me, but you're not responding to anything that I wrote. Imagine my confusion.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Jun, 2011 03:22 am
@ossobuco,
Quote:
advertising is an interest of mine.

Me, too.

Quote:
Sounds like what we used to call Madison Avenue doing some ******* off. Or similar words.

Not sure what that means.

Quote:
I will venture to say that I think she should have been consulted and compensated, if she wasn't, and if she wasn't, the ad/media thing was exceptionally invasive.

It certainly sounds like she wasn't consulted, osso. Kraft/Cadbury have apologized & immediately withdrawn the advertisement, after contact from her lawyers.
msolga
 
  0  
Reply Sun 5 Jun, 2011 03:24 am
@joefromchicago,
Sorry about the confusion.
My post could have been in response to quite a number of posts on the thread, not yours specifically, Joe.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Sun 5 Jun, 2011 03:07 pm
@msolga,
So it's not just racism at play here. The folks who don't agree with your.assessment are nationalistic as well?

I didn't think Oz had any real mountains, and that big ole rock you have isn't nearly high enough to see so much more than the rest of us.
msolga
 
  0  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2011 12:16 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
So it's not just racism at play here.

Did you read what I wrote?
I saw the advertisement as racial stereotyping, others made it clear they didn't.
Quote:
The folks who don't agree with your.assessment are nationalistic as well?

Confused

There is the possibility that we could interpret the advertisement differently, depending on what's considered ok or not at the time, wherever we happen to live. That is what I said.

As for the part about "real mountains" & "rocks" & seeing more than the rest of you .....
I haven't a clue what you're on about, Finn. Confused
I was posting my response to the thread topic, same as everyone else.
dawa742365
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2011 06:44 am
@chai2,
Proverbs
roverbs: Choice and Discernment, the Two Ways of Living

In studying the book of Proverbs there is a similar theme of choice and discernment, the teachings of decision-making and the repercussions of your actions. These books are made up of extremes and polar opposites. The dualisms are the rich and poor, the righteous and the wicked, and the wise and the foolish. There is advice given and it is up to the judgment of the person to which category they will fall into. There are two ways of living, and based on the person's discernment and ultimate choice to which one they will get to live.
This paper will focus on Proverbs 10, 12, and 14, Solomon's Proverbs, to display this theme of choice and discernment. Proverb 10 is an antithetical parallelism, because the second line is opposite of the first. This passage is both observational and didactic. Some of the passages are subtle entities and some are teachings that promote an ideal. " Wise children make their fathers
0 Replies
 
dawa742365
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2011 06:44 am
@chai2,
Proverbs
roverbs: Choice and Discernment, the Two Ways of Living

In studying the book of Proverbs there is a similar theme of choice and discernment, the teachings of decision-making and the repercussions of your actions. These books are made up of extremes and polar opposites. The dualisms are the rich and poor, the righteous and the wicked, and the wise and the foolish. There is advice given and it is up to the judgment of the person to which category they will fall into. There are two ways of living, and based on the person's discernment and ultimate choice to which one they will get to live.
This paper will focus on Proverbs 10, 12, and 14, Solomon's Proverbs, to display this theme of choice and discernment. Proverb 10 is an antithetical parallelism, because the second line is opposite of the first. This passage is both observational and didactic. Some of the passages are subtle entities and some are teachings that promote an ideal. " Wise children make their fathers
Proverbs
0 Replies
 
Renaldo Dubois
 
  0  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2011 09:22 am
I find Ms. Campbell a media tramp.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  2  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2011 09:31 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

Sorry about the confusion.
My post could have been in response to quite a number of posts on the thread, not yours specifically, Joe.

Well, I'm still confused, but let me address a few points you non-specifically raised:

msolga wrote:
You know, Joe, I have seen sanctimonious criticisms from US posters here directed at people from other countries about their "racism".
Sometimes (from the perspective of the folk in the countries on the receiving end of the criticism) US posters have been quite wrong, having next to no insight into the cultural context of what they have been criticizing.

What exactly is the relevant "cultural context" of this chocolate advertisement?

msolga wrote:
Sorry, but that's the way I & quite a few others have seen it in the past.

No need to apologize.

msolga wrote:
I might agree with you on this advertisement if the product was called "diva".
But it wasn't.

Quit right, the product is called Dairy Milk Bliss Bar. Why does that change things?

msolga wrote:
And the advertisements included her name.
Which left the public to make whatever of the connotation between Campbell & chocolate.

No, the advertisement invited the public to make the connection between Naomi Campbell and divas. Face it, if Cadbury's wanted to make the connection between chocolate and a famous black person, I don't think it would have settled on Campbell, who is, at best, a B-list celebrity. Furthermore, there would have been no sense in talking about a "new diva in town." If the intent was to make the connection between chocolate and black persons, the tag line becomes incomprehensible (unless one were to claim that all blacks are divas). Rather, the ad would have said something like "Move over Naomi, there's a new luscious brown treat in town." That would be offensive. But then that's not the ad.

msolga wrote:
I have absolutely no doubt that if a prominent African American "celebrity" was treated in the same way as Naomi Campbell was, in a US chocolate advertising campaign, that there'd be quite a few more people here upset by it.

"Move over Oprah, there's a new diva in town?" Nope, still not upset.
Renaldo Dubois
 
  0  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2011 09:43 am
Here's another one. Who do these idiots think they are?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/jun/06/patti-labelle-sued-airport-attack
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2011 03:06 pm
@msolga,
Tell me if the following statements are incorrect:

1) You opined that the advertisement was racist.
2) You opined that more Americans would agree with you if Naomi Campbell was American.

If they are accurate, are you now saying that because these are your opinions and observations that they are immune from criticism?

If so, that would be very interesting considering you went off on Chicago Joe for an opinion that wasn't even his.
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2011 03:49 pm
@msolga,
Aren't those diamonds that candy bar is resting in? Perhaps I don't see the ad that clearly, but they look like it to me.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2011 03:52 pm
@msolga,
I'll change that "******* off" to having a bit of fun.

Maybe your confusion was my reference to Madison Avenue. That was the heart of the advertising world in the US for many years, was used as a term for it. I don't know that it is presently considered the heart of the ad world.
msolga
 
  0  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2011 11:19 pm
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
Well, I'm still confused, but let me address a few points you non-specifically raised:


..... What exactly is the relevant "cultural context" of this chocolate advertisement?

The way I see it (& you are perfectly welcome to see it differently, of course) is that a frivolous & suggestive reference was made (without her permission) of a prominent West Indian/UK “celebrity/diva” in an advertising campaign for a new variety of chocolate.
You could see it solely as a reference only to Naomi Campbell & her “diva” status, or you could see it as reflecting on the broader West Indian community (specifically women) in the UK.

From my perspective, I care much less about Naomi Campbell’s personal “image”, my concern is solely about the possible negative impact of racial stereotyping of minority groups in response to silly & ambiguous advertisements like this one.

As I understand things, this is a community which is struggling to establish its own self esteem & identity, from a disadvantaged minority position (educationally, employment, community status, say nothing of slavery history, etc) in a predominantly “white” culture.
I don’t see advertisements like this one as being of any advantage to them at all. In fact I believe it makes their efforts much more difficult.

Quote:
Quit right, the product is called Dairy Milk Bliss Bar. Why does that change things?

Funny, I asked a friend who hadn’t seen the advertisement that very same question on the weekend.
What connotations could be construed by an advertisement including these references?:
Naomi Campbell + chocolate + bliss.
Her response was “sex”. And “colour”.
That was my first reaction, too, despite the diamonds & the “move over Naomi, there’s another diva in town” text.

If Kraft/Campbell had simply stuck to the one “diva” message & actually called its new product that, there would have been no ambiguity in the advertisement "message".
Though I’d still be baffled about the connection between Naomi Campbell & their new chocolate product.

As I can see from the previous posts here, few others have made a similar connection, but apparently it was made by elements of the UK press, for images like this one to have appeared in commentary about the advertisement.

http://static.globalgrind.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/article_thumbnail/images/2011_may/naomi-chocolate.jpg

Quote:
No, the advertisement invited the public to make the connection between Naomi Campbell and divas. Face it, if Cadbury's wanted to make the connection between chocolate and a famous black person, I don't think it would have settled on Campbell, who is, at best, a B-list celebrity. Furthermore, there would have been no sense in talking about a "new diva in town." If the intent was to make the connection between chocolate and black persons, the tag line becomes incomprehensible (unless one were to claim that all blacks are divas). Rather, the ad would have said something like

..."Move over Oprah, there's a new diva in town?" Nope, still not upset.

But you see, Joe, Oprah would never be the subject of an advertisement containing innuendos about her character. It would have to be an equivalent B-list “celebrity. A-listers would never receive this sort of treatment from the advertising industry.

Oprah is part of the US & international celebrity establishment, far more respected than someone of Naomi Campbell’s public status. Campbell would, & was, considered fair game, because of her notoriety.

In any case, any advertiser (especially in the US) wouldn’t be so foolhardy to take on Oprah in such a way. They wouldn’t even dream of it. The backlash would be something to see! Her lawyers would be on the case in no time, for starters. Not that much different to Naomi Campbell’s lawyers I’d suspect.
`
msolga
 
  0  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2011 11:37 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
1)You opined that the advertisement was racist.

2) You opined that more Americans would agree with you if Naomi Campbell was American.


If they are accurate, are you now saying that because these are your opinions and observations that they are immune from criticism?

Yes, I said that in my opinion I considered the advertisement was racist in the UK context.

Actually I made no reference at all as to how US posters would respond if Naomi Campbell was American. I asked how they’d respond if the subject of such an advertisement was a prominent US “celebrity”, suggesting that they might find it more offensive if it was.

No one’s opinions on any A2K thread are immune to criticism. I have received criticism for the views I’ve expressed here, which others have clearly disagree with & I have disagreed with others' views as well.
That isn’t too surprising in discussions where we have differences of opinion, surely? Happens all the time. And it’s going to keep on happening when contentious issues are discussed here.

In an earlier post you said:
Quote:
So it's not just racism at play here. The folks who don't agree with your.assessment are nationalistic as well?

I haven’t referred to nationalism at all.

Certainly my comments haven’t been inspired by any sense of Australian nationalism, nor do I believe that others’ comments here were inspired by feelings of nationalism, either.

I referred to cultural context as being a possible reason for our different takes on an ambiguous advertisement. And tried to explain how my own cultural context could have influenced my opinion of the advertisement. If you disagree, then by all means argue against that view.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  0  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2011 11:45 pm
@ossobuco,
Quote:
I'll change that "******* off" to having a bit of fun.

Maybe your confusion was my reference to Madison Avenue. That was the heart of the advertising world in the US for many years, was used as a term for it. I don't know that it is presently considered the heart of the ad world.

Kraft/Cadbury claimed that the advertisement was having a bit of fun at the pretensions of their new product, then they withdrew it after the threat of legal action.

And no, I wasn’t confused by the Madison Avenue reference. I just wasn’t sure what you meant in your post.

Yes, there are diamonds in the advertisement (an apparent reference to “blood diamonds”) as was mentioned earlier in the thread.
0 Replies
 
Old Goat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jun, 2011 12:20 am
The first words that spring to my mind when Naomi is mentioned?
In descending order:
Stroppy.
Tantrums.
Spoilt.
Beautiful.
Materialistic.
Shallow.

Honestly? I think that "black" comes way down the list, if at all, and would say that most people in the UK would compile a similar list to mine.

AND .....I loathe Kraft for what they did to Cadbury's during their takeover, so would love to find fault with the advert but I honestly think they were going purely for the diva connection on this occasion.

As far as Kraft as a company is concerned, and that witch who runs the whole sorry outfit, I truly hope they go to hell in a handcart for what they did.
If I had my way, it would be made an imprisonable offence for any UK citizen to buy a product that puts money into the Kraft coffers.
In the ideal world, ex British Cadbury bosses would set up a rival factory producing identical Dairy Milk chocolate, slap a union jack on the wrapper and call it the Brit Bar, and let the people know exactly why the rival Kraft bar should be ditched.
If Brits had backbone and used a good old boycott like they used to in days gone by, the new Kraft/Cadbury would be out of business here within a few weeks.
Nowadays, however, our national herd seems to prefer watching Simon Cowell and appauding performing dogs in their spare time.

Shame.





msolga
 
  0  
Reply Tue 7 Jun, 2011 12:50 am
@Old Goat,
I've been reading information online from your National Equality Panel & other UK sources, Old Goat.

Maybe some of the concerns I've mentioned might actually exist in black West Indian communities there, if not so much in the broader community?
I had a friend who worked for a quite number of years in schools around London with large numbers of West Indian & other minority group students in attendance. Not much that she said made me feel very encouraged about their opportunities in education & in life. But then, I could say much the same about various immigrant/refuge students in Oz & the opportunities they receive here these days.
Sigh.

I have seen so many take-overs here, similar to the Cadbury one by Kraft, that all I can do is sigh wistfully about by-gone times. They're relentless.

As for Naomi Campbell, I've said all I've wanted to say about her. I don't care about her as an individual much at all.

hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 7 Jun, 2011 01:03 am
@msolga,
Quote:
As for Naomi Campbell, I've said all I've wanted to say about her. I don't care about her as an individual much at all.
Why should you? ....all she is is a model, and a bitch of a model at that.
 

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