My Wednesday Rant (holla back black people)

Noah, the biggest problem I have with your reasoning is your apparent inability to separate blacks as a group from a black person as an individual. As a group, many blacks suffer a "vicious cycle" of poverty handed down generation to generation, since the slave days. In this respect; your hypothesis is correct in that blacks still suffer from an injustice perpetrated long ago. The thing you constantly sidestep and ignore is that it is every man's duty to take care of himself. Let me make an analogy that may shed some light on the idea for you:

It is a well known phenomenon that much of domestic violence can be attributed to a "vicious cycle". Still, saying that your father, grandfather, great grandfather etc did it, does not constitute an acceptable excuse for this behavior. While it may be true that some action 10 generations back started this cycle in motion, it remains every man's responsibility to not continue the cycle. Parents of domestic abusers can sometimes be blamed on a philosophical level, but ultimately every man is responsible for his own actions.

Now, if you apply this same logic to the "poverty of blacks" issue you will see that neither society at large, nor a genetic inferiority need be blamed for a lack of black equality in terms of financial success. To end the cycle, individual black people simply need to strive for greater success and teach their children to do the same. If enough black individuals do so; the group "blacks" will cease to be impoverished in comparison to other humans. Hell, if you convince enough black people to partake, they will no doubt, as a group, sky over the relative success of white people. Start with the intelligent man in the mirror. :wink:

Ps. I think I am in a minority in that I seek no advantage from unearned wealth. Idea

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Very well expressed Bill.

And that is what I'm getting at with the "it can be both".

There's no denying that past injustice has hold-overs to this day. Heck we even agreed on it.

But breaking a cycle of poverty requires more than just accessing blame and specifically requires the will of the individual to change the culture and break the cycle.

Many are doing so, in many different nations.

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And, of course, some of what keeps cycles of poverty going - for any race - are the effects on human development of many of the things that TEND to cluster with poverty - eg poorer nutrition, parental stress and poor attachment, less parental attention available to each child, a less educationally enriched environment etc etc. All of these are proving to have critical effects on infant brain development - both in terms of less rich neuronal networks, increased chronic levels of arousal (and hence often increased aggression or withdrawal) and decreased abilities to self-soothe - some researchers, such as Fonagy, posit that such things can affect the ability to properly develop abstract thought - leading to obvious difficulties educationally and socially/emotionally.

These things have nothing to do with race or genetics. Nonetheless, they are part of the picture that needs to be examined in thinking about cycles of poverty - and ways out of such cycles - for any group.

In mentioning these, I am both supporting Craven and Bill's assertions that there is not a clear dichotomy - that there can, indeed be "both" - and, indeed, many other factors.

I also mention them to say that it is not as easy as individuals deciding to do things differently - (not that I think Craven is saying that it is) - although this would be part of any solution.

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There has been progress, much progress, as Sophia has pointed out, "Civil Rights laws, anti-discrimination volumes....HR rules... Plenty has been done."

But, there is also the phenomenon that Bill O. writes about and demonstrates (on another of Noah's threads):

Quote:

When hiring sales people; I hire the most qualified applicants, but; I assume in advance that the black applicants are not likely to perform as well as their equally qualified white counterparts. Black applicants with ethnic sounding names or speech are far less likely to meet quota. I've measured the performance of hundreds of sales persons, while selling tens of thousands of products. As a capitalist, my aspiration is to make as much money as possible. The best person for the job, is the one that is most profitable to employ. Perhaps the white majority in America is less likely to buy from blacks. Perhaps the blacks I've hired lacked the social skills to match their white counterparts performance. Perhaps blacks don't try to sell as hard as whites (this one I know is false). Perhaps I'm a closet racist who lies about the observed results in order to justify my racism (also false). Regardless of the reason, the results remain the same. I've heard of Sales managers who automatically: "If the first name ryhmes with honda, the application goes in the circular file." Unfair? Certainly. Ecconomically sound? Probably. Racially biased? Definitely. Sales 'Leads" can be tremendously expensive to generate. A closing ratio variation of 1% is enormous! My companies profit margin is frequently less than 1%.
Conclusion: Ecconomic resposibility sometimes overrides my desire to be racially blind. The ugly truth is that this fiscal reality does help propetuate Noah's claims.

And then concludes,

Quote:

So, people with African ancestors have a bit of a dissadvantage when looking for work... So what. So do fat people. So do ugly people. So do intellectually challanged people. Depending on where you are; an accent from New York or Georgia will put you at a disadvantage. Young people, old people, tall people, short people are all disadvantaged as well.

So, what kind of progress has been made in this regard, the phenomenon that Bill demonstrates, within individuals like Bill O., or is it more like how Bill O. concludes, that racism is something like a handicap; it is something that Blacks must overcome for themselves, individually?

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Who's this Bill O guy? He sounds an awful lot like me.

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InfraBlue; why did you only quote 90% of my post? Did you think the other 10% was irrelevant? I don't. So here it is:

OCCOM BILL wrote:

Yikes, this one might get me in trouble. I, as you can see by my avatar, I am a stereotypical white man. I would like to think I exercise no racist beliefs, but that's not true.
[body portion that InfraBlue generously provided]
It is my contention that every single person is an individual. We all have our crosses to carry. I've read about people with Down Syndrome graduating college. The person most responsible for success or failure, in this country at least, is the person you look at in the mirror. Am I a racist?

The two thoughts mesh a little better now, don't they Shortly there after I further clarified with:

OCCOM BILL wrote:

Cav, a deadbeat is a deadbeat, regardless of color. People must live within whatever means they have. I've lent a considerable amount of money to employees, and no, race was never a factor. Stereotypes and generalizations become irrelevant when accessing individuals In my first post, I should have used the word prediction instead of assumption in relating to a new employees anticipated performance. I am not the one who uses the circular file mentioned. Does this clear anything up?

I apologize if I come off as a nitpicker, but another poster here has given me a pet peeve about post chopping to obscure points.

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Noah The African wrote:

No the flaw is that INACTION preserves the effect of past racism and most of you are NOT ACTING TO OFFSET the effects of a long history of racism aginst black, to the degree of creating equality. THus, it is not that you are not doing it MY WAY....its that your are SIMPLY NOT DOING IT ANYWAY!!!!!!!!

I have trouble getting out bed to make it to work everyday. Now I"m being accused of preventing a race of people from achieving economic and social equality. Seems like a bit of a leap.

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Everybody has asked the question, and they learned to ask it early of the Abolitionists, "What shall we do with the Negro?" I have had but one answer from the beginning. Do nothing with us! Your doing with us has already played mischief with us. Do nothing with us! If the apples will not remain on the tree of their own strength, if they are worm-eaten at the core, if they are early ripe and disposed to fall, let them fall! I am not tying or fastening them on the tree in any way, except by nature's plan, and if they will not stay there, let them fall. And if the Negro cannot stand on his own legs, let him fall also. All I ask is, give him a chance to stand on his own legs! Let him alone! If you see him on his way to school, let him alone -- don't disturb him. If you see him going to the dinner tableat a hotel, let him go! If you see him going to the ballot-box, let him alone, -- don't disturb him! If you see him going into a workshop, just let him alone, -- your interference is doing him a positive injury....Let him fall if he cannot stand alone! If the Negro cannot live by the line of eternal justice,...the fault will not be yours; it will be his who made the Negro, and established that line for his government. Let him live or die by that. If you will only untie his hands, and give him a chance, I think he will live...

Noah, this is one of the most powerful speeches that I have ever read. Do you know who said it and when it was said?

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"if you see your neighbor carrying something
help him with his load,
but don't go mistaking paradise for that home across the road."
Bob Dylan

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Well, dys. Looks as though Bob and Fred are harmonizing. (not your Fred)

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Occam,
I don't think I obscured your points. The gist of your points is that yes there is racism for what ever reasons, to different degrees; and that this racism is very much a handicap that individual Blacks must overcome for themselves. Right?

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My bad, InfraBlue... I was nitpicking. Embarrassed

You are correct in your assessment.

Letty, I agree with you that Mr. Douglas was absolutely right. A handout is not necessarily a hand up. Sometimes assistance reinforces the false idea that lack of productivity should be rewarded. And it inadvertently promotes the same. If you tie a life preserver around a child throughout his childhood, he evolves into an adult who can not swim. We all face varying degrees of adversity and it is paramount that we learn to overcome it.

Noah, I offer as proof of my hypothesis, the Asian American population. Surely they were not so popular after wars with Japan, Korea and Vietnam. Still, per capita; Koreans, Vietnamese and Japanese Americans are far more successful than their "White" counterparts. They are neither genetically superior nor favored by society at large. They simply strive harder for individual success and are therefore better equipped to compete in society. Rather than relying on public concessions, they work their asses off. Measure the Asian's per capita in the University Libraries compared to admission statistics and you will see what I mean.

Ultimately; every man is responsible for his own lot in life. Idea

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Letty- Who DID write that speech? It was wonderful.

I believe that it is not unreasonable for society to provide a safety net for people...but not a security blanket. Long term dependency upon others promotes anger an resentment on the part of the recipient, as well as loss of self esteem.

When I was working, I had a poster on my wall with the well known motto:

Quote:

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I'm pretty sure that was Frederick Douglas, Pheonix.

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I have been through the welfare/safety net argument so many times I hesitate to say a word. Here goes anyway. The historical momentum is to shut down help for the poor. I notice the argument about it always starts when whites and blacks are wrangling about race, not when whites argue "white" issues. This tells me it is a racial issue, believe it or not; like it or not. The buzz went about like this just before Clinton and congress "reformed the welfare system:" "Black welfare queens having dozens of babies, driving Cadillacs -" What right thinking WASP could resist such a compelling vision? The right thing to do was cut the corruption from the system, but instead welfare fell into a pattern of hacking away at the safety net for the poor. Welfare need not be a generational way of life to help the needy. But, the system was hacked to pieces because of this vision of the black welfare cheat.

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Fredrick Douglas, yes. Phoenix and all. He learned to read by trading food for knowledge. My apologies to you all, I am only gleaning the corners of my mind.

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I couldn't figure out what it was that bothered me about Noah's rant...I have always considered myself above racism and I generally take people for who they are instead of what they are.

According to the 2000 census, only 12.9% of Americans that responded claimed to be Black or of African descent. Of course America as a whole cannot take the interests of 12.9% of it's population and place them at the top of the "needs taken care of" list. To that extent, I believe there is some truth in what Noah says about taking care of our own, but I think that as a country, we have the greater good of the nation to think about and not the greater good of the blacks, or Italians, or asians, or latino's, or Irish, or whatever else. I believe that our country has the best interests of AMERICANS at heart and that all mentioned fall under that definition.

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Quote:

The right thing to do was cut the corruption from the system, but instead welfare fell into a pattern of hacking away at the safety net for the poor.

edgarblythe- The problem is where the government intervenes in areas where they do not belong. "The system" feeds upon itself, and inevitably becomes corrupt. IMO, the only role of government is to provide the "safety net" for for a limited period of time, and to take care of those who can't take care of themselves, ie: the severely disabled.

In years gone by, charities, including religious groups and non-profits, provided services to the needy. When I was a kid, you NEVER heard of people being on welfare for generations. It was the government that spawned the concept of "entitlements".......................and now the problem is of severe proportions.

For a couple of years I worked in a county program that dealt with training people who were having difficulty in obtaining and keeping employment. It was a joke. It was so rife with corruption and political shenanigans, that I don't believe that the program helped the people that it targeted much good in the long run. But it certainly lined the pockets of the politically connected!!!

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My Wednesday Rant (holla back black people)

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