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My Wednesday Rant (holla back black people)

 
 
Noah The African
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 02:33 pm
Noah The African wrote:
If someone took a poll of honest white Americans and asked them if they would be willing to pay higher taxes to promote social and economic equality between the races, I can guarantee that most whites would object. They would do a mental calculus of benefit/cost. Since they have the higher standard of living, they would lose more than they would gain. Blacks, with a lower standard of living, would thus gain more than they lose, on average. Thus if it is TRUE that equality is better morally than inequality, between races, then the reason whites object is not born from the desire to seek TRUTH but rather, to preserve their monetary and social status interest. That’s the best proof that I can give you, however, you can bring a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink it.


Heres the proof....However I am not qualified to do polling. However, I would bet a years salary against yours that I am correct in this assertion.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 02:35 pm
I'd be interested to know what the cost/benefit analysis was which was done by the white housewife from Michigan murdered during the Civil Rights marches, or the three white college students murdered in Mississippi. How about the thousands upon thousands of Federal soldiers killed in the Civil War?

Your thesis is just another symptom of the persistent racism in America--which comes from people of all shades of skin color.
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Noah The African
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 02:35 pm
What I am proposing is the promotion of social and economic racial equality. Everyone would be taxed, but those who get the most return over their out flows are blacks and Native Americans. while whites would have a net loss. do not try to obfuscate the issue in terms of progressive or regressive tax methodologies. I am simply taking in theory here.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 02:40 pm
Noah The African wrote:
What I am proposing is the promotion of social and economic racial equality. Everyone would be taxed, but those who get the most return over their out flows are blacks and Native Americans. while whites would have a net loss. do not try to obfuscate the issue in terms of progressive or regressive tax methodologies. I am simply taking in theory here.


So in your theory does a poor white person pay extra taxes to benefit a rich black person?

Tiered taxing is not obfuscation, it is a direct correlation to societal status and need.
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Noah The African
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 03:09 pm
Poor whites will be marginally affected due to their lack of income. The people who will lose the most will be the non-poor white people. The white poverty rate is around 8% compared to 25% for blacks in 2002. If we were to promote racial economic equality then either black poverty needs to be lowered to 8% or white poverty rates increased to 35%.

Notice your line of reasoning. It is attempting to figure out who benefits invidualy as opposed to collectivelly. What happens individualy, in the promotion of collective racial equality is secondary.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 03:16 pm
No it is not.

See I don't believe that rewards should go to racial groups at all. I think those who should benefit are the disadvantaged, regardless of their race.

Poverty is not exclusive to blacks and indians.

See, you justify the "rewards" by citing the socially disadvantaged. Now to turn around and say the well to do should get money from poor people simply on the basis of their race is absurd.

It's a racially prejudiced proposal. If a poor white person has to pay taxes that will benefit a rich black person there is as a sole criteria race. And in this criteria there is an inherent racism.

If you are suggesting that the well to do pay more taxes and the less fortunate (regardless of race) get some benefit then it is a different story.

If you are saying that blacks need a handout regardless of whether they are rich and that whites should pay (even if they are poor) that is absurd.
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Noah The African
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 03:25 pm
What you believe and what is logical are two different things. In essence, what I propose, would, in effect produce what you want to produce by focusing simply on poverty. No matter how you focus, by class or by race, blacks come out as the primary beneficiaries, due to blacks being disproportionately poor. Thus, I am all for focusing on class too. The only thing that I would add, however, is that black people should be able to use the pool of taxes dollars that they would get for the black poor, in the way that we chose to use them and not have a cookie cutter approach of solving poverty that is caused by differing phenomenon. White leaders can then decide how to use the tax money going to eliminate white poverty, since they BEST understand the issues and problems of whites, while black leaders would be allowed to decide how to use the black dollars, because blacks BEST understand black problems and needs.
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 03:34 pm
Quote:
White leaders can then decide how to use the tax money going to eliminate white poverty, since they BEST understand the issues and problems of whites, while black leaders would be allowed to decide how to use the black dollars, because blacks BEST understand our problems and needs.


What about Native American leaders, and Muslim American Leaders, and Jewish leaders, and on and on? My gracious, we would have all kinds of leaders running around and determining what is best for their own particular piece of the pie. What a comforting thought. What this country really needs is more bureaucracy!
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 03:35 pm
Noah The African wrote:
In essence, what I propose, would, in effect produce what you want to produce by focusing simply on poverty. No matter how you focus, by class or by race, blacks come out as the primary beneficiaries, due to blacks being disproportionately poor.


Correct, but the criteria should not be racial, the criteria should be about helping the disadvantaged.

Quote:
Thus, I am all for focusing on class too.


I think this is a paramount distinction. See there's really no valid reason for a disadvantaged white person to be paying extra taxes simply because they are white.

There is no valid reason for a rich black person to be benefiting from those taxes simply because they are black.

Quote:
The only thing that I would add, however, is that black people should be able to use the pool of taxes dollars that they would get for the black poor, in the way that we chose to use them and not have a cookie cutter approach of solving poverty that is caused by differing phenomenon.


This is absurd. The benefits should directly correspond with the need (accourding to societal situation).

To simply give a handout based on race and let a racial group determine what is done with national taxes is ludicrous.

Quote:
White leaders can then decide how to use the tax money going to eliminate white poverty, since they BEST understand the issues and problems of whites, while black leaders would be allowed to decide how to use the black dollars, because blacks BEST understand black problems and needs.


Again this tribal nonsense is absurd.

You might like to be led around but I don't. I don't want to have to depend on some "white leader" and I bet many blacks wouldn't want to have some "black leader" determine their finances either.

The benefits should be directly given to the individual just like the taxes are collected.

Having "white leaders" and "black leaders" take charge of everyone's money is as absurd as saying that "white leaders" and "black leaders" should be in charge of determining and collecting taxes.

The tribalism inherent in that proposition is risible.

But let's focus on where we agree.

The disadvantaged can be helped through societal collaboration.

Those getting help would not be defined by race but by need.
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Noah The African
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 03:45 pm
It is not absurd. You must really be naïve. Do you not realize that target marketing takes place hourly, where advertisers cater their selling to the specific needs and desires of men, women, young, old, black, white, Hispanic, rich, poor, by zipcodes, by states, by regions so on and so fourth? Why do you think that doctors SPECIALIZE. According to you, they should all be general practitioners instead of tribalizing body parts and organs to develop a greater degree of expertise and solutions and cures to illnesses. Moreover, the whole concept of being American and supporting America is TRIBAL.

You do not know anything about solving problems and you certainly do not even know what is practiced in your own nation dailty, if you cannot see the wisdom of specializing in the specific needs of specific communities. That is simply asinine and absurd ignorance. Why should be who really do not understand and live the problems and issues of black people, have say over the means to solve our problems? The white majority will create a cookie cutter solution or application of dollars for the poor will primarily address the needs of the dominant majority of the poor, WHICH ARE WHITE. This leaves the special needs of black poverty unattended to and this is why blacks people need to decide how black poverty dollars should be spent.
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blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 03:49 pm
I suggest total anarchy. That'll solve every problem we have.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 03:49 pm
Noah The African wrote:
It is not absurd. You must really be naïve. Do you not realize that target marketing takes place hourly, where advertisers cater their selling to the specific needs and desires of men, women, young, old, black, white, Hispanic, rich, poor, by zipcodes, by states, by regions so on and so fourth? Why do you think that doctors SPECIALIZE. According to you, they should all be general practitioners instead of tribalizing body parts and organs to develop a greater degree of expertise and solutions and cures to illnesses. Moreover, the whole concept of being American and supporting America is TRIBAL.


Noah, there's a big difference between career specialization and racial tribalism. Laughing

Quote:
You do not know anything about solving problems and you certainly do not even know what is practiced in your own nation dailty, if you cannot see the wisdom of specializing in the specific needs of specific communities.


Noah, you know precious little about me. This includes what I do and do not know.

Quote:
That is simply asinine and absurd ignorance. Why should be who really do not understand and live the problems and issues of black people, have say over the means to solve our problems? The white majority will create a cookie cutter solution or application of dollars for the poor will primarily address the needs of the dominant majority of the poor, WHICH ARE WHITE. This leaves the special needs of black poverty unattended to.


By all means follow a leader for your special needs. Laughing Tax money will be allocated by elected leaders and your tribalism will never be realized.

You can follow whomever you want, but unless a leader is elected or receives a legal mandate he will lead only those who sheepishly allow it.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 03:56 pm
I wonder who Noah has in mind for the distributor of these tax dollars in his area . . . hmmm . . .
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 03:56 pm
Oh Setanta, you know what they say about great minds! :-D
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 03:56 pm
Oh, BTW, if you want to have a leader and want to have your leader distribute your money and handle your finances you are perfectly free to do so.

You don't need it to be a requirement.

Edit: BTW, I had the same thought...
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Noah The African
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 04:04 pm
And who will prevent these things from manifesting in a representative republic? The answer is white people who will decide that it is not in their interest to promote the facilitating of black equality. Rather, they would simply continue to implement generic solutions that only secure votes, but really does not work to solve the underlying real problems. Thus, we are right back were I said we were in terms of self-interest vs truth.

You can put as many smiley faces as you want in your threads, but it does not hide that fact that you have been factually refuted. Specialization promotes expertise in all endeavors and not just careers. Jacks-of-all-trades are masters of none and unless this nations deals with social problems in their specifics, then the problems will never be solved.

You people kill me with your hypocrisy. Always talking about not promoting tribalism or division, why being staunch patriots to some dang flag and nation as if that is not tribalism and separation.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 04:07 pm
Noah The African wrote:
You people kill me with your hypocrisy. Always talking about not promoting tribalism or division, why being staunch patriots to some dang flag and nation as if that is not tribalism and separation.


Again, you make unwarranted assumptions about those who post here, without knowing anything about them. Your hypocricy consists of the rant against institutionalized racism, while displaying racism again and again, in your rants here, and in other threads.
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Noah The African
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 04:08 pm
Who NOah has in mind is not the issue since Noah is not BLACK PEOPLE, but a black person. Who we collectively choose should be out of your sphere of influence or conscerne.
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Noah The African
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 04:13 pm
It is you who is wrong, I am not ranting against institutionalized racism. Isms will always be with us. What I seeks is EQUALITY, which does not necessarily imply an end to racism, but rather and equality of racism that would produces social and economic equality as the resultant.

I call you all racist do to the effect of your position preserving the effect of the inferiority of condition of black people. When you offer opinions that promote offsetting to the effects of past and present racism against blacks, then you will not in effect be racist.
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2004 04:13 pm
Just hand over the money, and you'll do with it what you want, huh. What a deal!
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