Texas passes voter ID law

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Shutting the demoKKKrat party down one state at a time...

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[+3] - panzade - 05/28/2011This should have been enacted decades ago. Why you think its going to shut down the Demokkkratic party, I don't know. You must have been standing out in that Texas sun too long.
[+3] - mysteryman - 05/29/2011[quote]From what I have read, this bill will be challenged in court. The argument will be that because it unfairly effects minority voters it is a violation of the Voter Rights act[/quote]...
[+3] - panzade - 05/29/2011I just looked up Florida's ID card and it looks like they raised the price from $3 to $25. Looks very similar to a poll tax.

@gungasnake,

I have a voter ID card, but it doesn't have a picture in NM. Maybe that's why the poll watchers never want to see it, even when I suggest they do.

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Republicans working toward a conserative controlled government. Next they will start selecting which church one can go to. Dont go to church, dont worry. The conseratives will select one for you.

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@RABEL222,

Quote:

Republicans working toward a conserative controlled government.

That would be a government which demoKKKrats could not control by importing third world voting blocks for themselves, wouldn't it?

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This should have been enacted decades ago.

Why you think its going to shut down the Demokkkratic party, I don't know.

You must have been standing out in that Texas sun too long.

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@RABEL222,

How can one possibly object to proof of eligibility in a particular state and district. I'm not fond of a bunch of Californians voting my water rights to their own greedy state, for just one example.

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Does anyone know what the KKK's actual position is on voter ID? I am pretty sure they would agree with Gungasnake, at least on this issue.

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@roger,

Roger, are you asking for a real discussion on the issue? If so, I will explain it to you. Here is the reasoning.

First of all, you want the most legitimate voters to be able to cast votes. Preventing a legitimate US citizen from casting their vote is a very bad thing. Of course, you also want to keep people who shouldn't vote, for example non-citizens, from voting.

So what obstacles should we put in people's way? Every additional requirement will make it more difficult for citizens to vote (a bad thing) as well as non-citizens to vote (a good) thing.

So this is a question of balancing the two goals.

Nothing to this point should be too controversial. Now you asked about why people like me "can possibly" object, you have to accept that this is a partisan issue like anything in politics.

Making it more difficult to vote means that lots of people who want to vote can. Every election there is a record of "provisional ballots" (people who wanted to vote, but couldn't) that are almost never counted. Democrat's and Republicans both know that these provisional ballots tend to be poorer and more minority voters.

It is common knowledge that making it harder to vote helps the Republicans and making it easier to vote helps Democrats. Each stance each party takes on these issues is not surprising. The Texas law passed on a party line vote (after a inflammatory partisan debate).

The Republicans point out that this makes it harder for non-citizens to vote. The Democrats point out that this makes it harder for college students and poor minorities to vote.

I am a Democrat, so you can take this with a grain of salt. I have seen no evidence that non-citizens are voting in any significant numbers. There is quite a bit of evidence that a significant number of poor and minority voters have been prevented from voting by these measures.

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@roger,

Object? I was just remembering when the subject of national ID's came up several years ago. The conseratives had a fit and called for an investigation of the commies running our government. Now its the best idea the democrates ever had when they discovered that many poor dident have a way to get ID's and might affect that section of the voters that vote democrat. Talk about hypocrites!!! Republicans dont believe in democracy but embrace dictatorship!!

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@maxdancona,

I think your premise is in error. Obtaining a voter ID with or without a photo is no more difficult than obtaining a driver license or state issued ID card. In fact, it is easier. With no statistics at hand, I suspect that there are very people getting by with no driving privilages because it is too difficult to make it to the department of motor vehicles. Some may have too many DWI convictions, and some may not be able to pass a road or vision test to get a license. The number of citizens who find it too difficult to get either a driver license or state ID is just vanishingly small. Voter registration is not only easier, it is way cheaper. It is free. I don't think you can argue that difficulty in registration is a factor, unless the motivation approaches zero. If registration is easy, what makes a registration card so much more difficult.

Quote:

Making it more difficult to vote means that lots of people who want to vote can. Every election there is a record of "provisional ballots" (people who wanted to vote, but couldn't) that are almost never counted. Democrat's and Republicans both know that these provisional ballots tend to be poorer and more minority voters.

I'm sure your first sentence means the opposite of what you have written. No problem understanding it. Now, "people who wanted to vote but couldn't": Huh? Yes, you have to register some length of time before the election. Why do you perceive that to be a problem? Registration prevents those with an excess of enthusiasm from voting multiple times in multiple precincts. What you see as a but, I see as a feature. Is it wrong to ask people to register a month (more or less) before the polls open? On this, we will continue to disagree. Anyone voting because they drove by a polling place, saw a line, and decided they should go stand in it don't have any business voting, anyway. Call it an elitist attitude, but honestly, registering to vote doesn't separate the elite from the others. Honest.

Quote:

It is common knowledge that making it harder to vote helps the Republicans and making it easier to vote helps Democrats (which is why each parties position on any of these issues is so obvious). Not surprisingly the Texas law passed on a party line vote (after a inflammatory debate).

I don't know quite what point you are trying to make here. If you're saying Democrats only vote when they don't have to register, when it isn't raining, or when somebody doesn't bus them to the polls, you are saying more about your party than you probably intend to.

What's with illegals? Again, I believe you to be in error. Speaking only of those from Latin America, they distinctly avoid such official contacts as unemployment compensation and 401k participation because of the increased chance of detection. Possibly they attempt to vote, but maybe not, and for exactly the same reason. I have to tell you, they come to America for the jobs. They would love to have permanant resident status so they could be legally employed, but very few actually want to be here. They send everything home they possibly can, and home is where they take their vacations.

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@roger,

Quote:

The number of citizens who find it too difficult to get either a driver license or state ID is just vanishingly small.

This seems to be a key point. Do you have any factual support for this statement? I would suspect (admittedly without having taken the time to get factual support) that it would be much more difficult for poor and minority citizens then it would be for comfortable middle class and professional citizens.

And you are missing my key point. I don't think there is any doubt that this bill will help Republicans in elections (which is why they were so eager to push it through) and hurt the Democrats (who fought it tooth and nail).

This isn't about the majority of Democrats who wont vote "when it is raining". Most Democratic voters won't be affected by this law.

Elections are often won or lost by a few percentage points. The law only effects citizens on the fringes of society, particularly minorities and working poor. The Democrats want these people to be able to vote. The Republicans don't want them to be able to vote.

A small percentage of the population matter in elections. And that is why a bill that will make it more difficult for a small percentage of the population to vote is such a hard fought partisan issue.

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@maxdancona,

Quote:

This seems to be a key point. Do you have any factual support for this statement? I would suspect (admittedly without having taken the time to get factual support) that it would be much more difficult for poor and minority citizens then it would be for comfortable middle class and professional citizens.

Same factual support as you offer. Can you cash a check without ID? Get a job, receive unemployment compensation, draw social security benefits - and yes, you have to identify yourself to draw social security? And yeah, the country is crawling with people turning down benefits because it is too much trouble to get state issued ID.

Quote:

And you are missing my key point. I don't think there is any doubt that this bill will help Republicans in elections (which is why they were so eager to push it through) and hurt the Democrats (who fought it tooth and nail).

What I said was that if this is true, it says more about your own party than anything else.

Quote:

A small percentage of the population matter in elections. And that is why a bill that will make it more difficult for a small percentage of the population to vote is such a hard fought partisan issue.

You confuse difficulty with apathy.

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@roger,

Quote:

Same factual support as you offer. Can you cash a check without ID? Get a job, receive unemployment compensation, draw social security benefits - and yes, you have to identify yourself to draw social security? And yeah, the country is crawling with people turning down benefits because it is too much trouble to get state issued ID.

You are speaking as if your experience is just like everyone elses. It is not (I am assuming you are a fairly comfortable middle-class professional, correct me if I am mistaken).

The American citizens who will be affected by this include Native Americans living on reservations or citizens in border communities with limited English skills or urban working class people scraping by or migrant farmworkers. As American citizens they absolutely have the right to vote. And it is certainly more difficult for them to vote then you or I.

It is not difficult for you to take time out of your day to drive down to a government office to get an ID. But thats not the issue here. There are lots of things that are real simple for you to do that would be a difficulty for people who are less fortunate.

The issue is that the Democrats want to make it as easy as possible for American citizens on the fringes of society to vote. And the Republicans want to make it harder.

Elections are winner take all contests where only a few percentage points can make all the difference. That's why this is such a big fight. Arguing that we should make it as easy as possible for every American citizen to exercise their right to vote is not an unreasonable stance.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Arguing that we should make it as easy as possible for every American citizen to exercise their right to vote is not an unreasonable stance.

Quite reasonable, but no more reasonable than insuring that each citizen only does it once.

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@roger,

Quote:

Quite reasonable, but no more reasonable than insuring that each citizen only does it once.

Of course. There is the balancing act. I suppose the question is whether it is more likely that fraud will occur without the bill, or voters will be disenfranchised with it. The fact that each political party sees a real partisan advantage to their stance makes this issue far more contentious.

From what I have read, this bill will be challenged in court. The argument will be that because it unfairly effects minority voters it is a violation of the Voter Rights act.

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@roger,

Quote:

What I said was that if this is true, it says more about your own party than anything else.

And you can't see what it says about Repubs, Roger?

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@JTT,

Max is expressing a Democrat's opinion of Democrats. Period.

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@roger,

Quote:

Max is expressing a Democrat's opinion of Democrats. Period.

Not exactly. I was trying to offer as impartial an analysis as possible regarding the question you raised (after acknowledging my particular interest in the matter).

I said that both Democrats and Republicans see political advantage (i.e. a greater advantage in elections) to their respective stances on the issue.

You asked how anyone could "possibly object to proof of eligibility". I tried to explain why many of us do object from two perspectives, the moral reasoning (you don't want to take peoples votes away) and the political calculus (you don't want your side to lose elections).

I don't think the Republicans have anything close to an open and shut case on this issue. And, I believe it has a decent chance of being overturned in court.

I was expressing far more than my opinion of Democrats.

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@maxdancona,

Quote:

From what I have read, this bill will be challenged in court. The argument will be that because it unfairly effects minority voters it is a violation of the Voter Rights act

Indiana has the same voter ID law, and the USSC has already upheld that law as being constitutional.

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@roger,

Quote:

How can one possibly object to proof of eligibility in a particular state and district. I'm not fond of a bunch of Californians voting my water rights to their own greedy state, for just one example.

The problem is that as far as I am aware there had never been a showing that large numbers of ineligibility voters are voting.

This law seems to be addressing the problem that too many lower class eligibility voters are voting democratic for the liking of the GOP.

1 Reply

Texas passes voter ID law

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