16
   

HAS OBAMA ANTAGONIZED, ALIENATED THE JEWISH VOTE ?

 
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2011 12:29 am
@Miller,
Quote:
Orthodox birthrate seen saving Jewish majority in Israel
Miller wrote:
The birthrate may be saving the Jewish population in numbers in Israel but the Orthodox/Ultraorthrodox, who study Torah night and day and provide for their families on welfare provided by the State of Israel contribute nothing to the economy of the country.

What demand in the real world is there for Torah scholars? How many jobs are advertised in the major newspapers of the world for Torah scholars?
I have no information about jobs,
but I imagine that thay r probably repositories of a lot of WISDOM. Yes ?





David
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2011 09:56 am
@Miller,
Miller wrote:

Quote:
Orthodox birthrate seen saving Jewish majority in Israel


The birthrate may be saving the Jewish population in numbers in Israel but the Orthodox/Ultraorthrodox, who study Torah night and day and provide for their families on welfare provided by the State of Israel contribute nothing to the economy of the country.

What demand in the real world is there for Torah scholars? How many jobs are advertised in the major newspapers of the world for Torah scholars?


Miller, if Christians can have their monks in the Middle Ages, to copy the ancient manuscripts from the pre-Middle Ages culture, why can't Jews have Torah Scholars? Israel does not need everyone contributing to its society like in the early days of the kibbutzim to survive. I am not even sure what your point was, other than it sounded petulant to me, in my opinion, as one reader.?
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2011 10:02 am
@Foofie,
Quote:
Miller, if Christians can have their monks in the Middle Ages, to copy the ancient manuscripts from the pre-Middle Ages culture, why can't Jews have Torah Scholars?


Do these Torah scholars brew beer, with which to pay their bills? Do they sell wine, to pay their bills? Do they copy manuscripts for profit, to pay their bills? Do they engage in spiritual blackmail, to pay their bills? It seems to me that they mostly do none of this, whereas Christian monks often engaged in profitable activities.

Cycloptichorn
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2011 10:19 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:
Miller, if Christians can have their monks in the Middle Ages, to copy the ancient manuscripts from the pre-Middle Ages culture, why can't Jews have Torah Scholars?


Do these Torah scholars brew beer, with which to pay their bills? Do they sell wine, to pay their bills? Do they copy manuscripts for profit, to pay their bills? Do they engage in spiritual blackmail, to pay their bills? It seems to me that they mostly do none of this, whereas Christian monks often engaged in profitable activities.

Cycloptichorn


Well, since your post above seems to imply, if I understand it, is that the Torah scholars are parasitic on the economy of Israel. O.K., a good point; however, when Sunday contributions are given at church, how much of that money might wind up to assist the societies outside the U.S.A.? So, if schools for orphans, in the developing nations, can be assisted by the good church going people in the developed nations, allowing the underdeveloped nations' government to continue to wallow in possible corruption regarding funding of orphanages, then what do we call that? Perhaps, the developing nations are parasitic off of the good church going people in the developed nations. Or, perhaps, the good church going people in the developed nations are parasitic off of the developed nations' economy, for the purpose of getting "brownie points" for heaven? I am not sure which is worse? The parasite of the Israeli economy, or the parasite of the western economies. Naturally, my logic does not allow for the good church going people, that contribute money each Sunday, to use the argument that they can do with their money as they choose. Possibly not so, if it bleeds money out of their respective country?
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2011 10:47 am
@Foofie,
Your answer is not relevant to what I said, at all; my only point is that the monks you referred did in fact engage in productive activities for their countries, whereas your modern version doesn't seem to do so, so much.

Cycloptichorn
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Fri 27 May, 2011 01:24 pm
There are very telling aspects about this whole row concerning Obama's proposal in reference to the 1967 lines, which is basically a reiteration of Bush's proposal that he put forth in a 2004 letter to Ariel Sharon.

Obama said, "The United States believes that negotiations should result in two states, with permanent Palestinian borders with Israel, Jordan, and Egypt, and permanent Israeli borders with Palestine. The borders of Israel and Palestine should be based on the 1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps, so that secure and recognized borders are established for both states."

Bush had said, "…in light of new realities on the ground, including already existing major Israeli population centers, it is unrealistic that the outcome of final status negotiations will be a full and complete return to the armistice lines of 1949, and all previous efforts to negotiate a two-state solution have reached the same conclusion. It is realistic to expect that any final status agreement will only be achieved on the basis of mutually agreed changes that reflect these realities..."

The gist of the matter is identical, yet Netanyahoo & co. completely rejected this proposal. What's self-servingly hypocritical about it all is that Netanyahoo & co. have continually pointed to this statement in regard to the settlement building freeze that was the point of contention concerning negotiations with the Palestinians in the second half of last year.

The second aspect of this is the absolute inanity and stupidity that the blind supporters of Israel demonstrate as they back Netanyahoo's rejection of the Bush/Obama proposal. For them, what's good for the US is whatever stand the current Israeli administration takes, no matter how self-serving, hypocritical or double-talking.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Sun 29 May, 2011 01:35 am
@talk72000,
Your point (apparently) is idiotic.

Jew committed genocide?

When?

What other crazy **** do you believe?

Do you have kids?




0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Sun 29 May, 2011 02:01 am
@maxdancona,
No one, and certainly not Israel, is thinking about a Final Solution to resolve such concerns.

I don't recognize your bullet points as common rhetoric from the past, but even if it were, it would be patently false.

Jewish birth rates in Europe were not significantly different from those of non-Jews.

The reality of history is that Jews were invited, if not welcomed, into European nations because of their economic power.

Once the European powers took as much advantage of Jewish wealth as they could, they often turned on them.

Anti-Semitic rhetoric flowed not from a legitimate demographic concern, but a desire to welsh on national loans, or establish a national scape-goat.

This is not remotely similar to the Palestinian/Israeli situation.

We can argue forever whether or not Israel should have been established as a "Jewish State," but it was. I would argue that if ever a race or tribe deserved its own state in was the Jews.

I've no doubt that some innocent people, who now lay claim to Palestinian origins, got screwed in the process. I very seriously doubt that a Right to Return would be limited to these people. I also have little doubt that Israel would be fine in accommodating the relative few number of legitimate claims.

Do you think though that Hamas and the PLO would spend a second on making sure that the Palestinians that claimed the right to return had a legitimate claim?

Undoubtedly there are a relative handful of Palestinians who have familial ties to land now within Israeli borders, but to think that the issue of "The Right of Return," is predicated upon their plight is at best naive and at worst cynical to an extreme.

When did anyone in the world give a damn about desert nomads who self-identified as Palestinians, before Israel entered the picture? Do you think, for one moment, that these same Noble Nomads were treated with respect and generosity by Egypt, Syria and Jordan?

The Palestinian situation vis a vis Israel is nothing like the Jewish situation vis a vis Europe, and to suggest it is, defies an understanding of history and implies a desire to fit the world to one's partisan preferences.



0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 May, 2011 01:32 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

Miller wrote:

Quote:
Orthodox birthrate seen saving Jewish majority in Israel


The birthrate may be saving the Jewish population in numbers in Israel but the Orthodox/Ultraorthrodox, who study Torah night and day and provide for their families on welfare provided by the State of Israel contribute nothing to the economy of the country.

What demand in the real world is there for Torah scholars? How many jobs are advertised in the major newspapers of the world for Torah scholars?


Miller, if Christians can have their monks in the Middle Ages, to copy the ancient manuscripts from the pre-Middle Ages culture, why can't Jews have Torah Scholars? Israel does not need everyone contributing to its society like in the early days of the kibbutzim to survive. I am not even sure what your point was, other than it sounded petulant to me, in my opinion, as one reader.?


The Monks paid their own way. No welfare in the good old days.
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 May, 2011 01:33 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

Quote:
Orthodox birthrate seen saving Jewish majority in Israel
Miller wrote:
The birthrate may be saving the Jewish population in numbers in Israel but the Orthodox/Ultraorthrodox, who study Torah night and day and provide for their families on welfare provided by the State of Israel contribute nothing to the economy of the country.

What demand in the real world is there for Torah scholars? How many jobs are advertised in the major newspapers of the world for Torah scholars?
I have no information about jobs,
but I imagine that thay r probably repositories of a lot of WISDOM. Yes ?



No doubt about the wisdom. But who wants baked wisdom for Sunday dinner?


No doubt about the wisdom. But who wants baked wisdom for Sunday dinner?
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 May, 2011 01:42 pm
Quote:
The Jewish birth rate was expected to exceed that of Muslims in Israel over the next 18 years, a report said.


Unfortunately, orthodox/ultraorthodox Jewish women, unlike Reform Jewish women have no choice in the matter.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 May, 2011 07:21 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Your answer is not relevant to what I said, at all; my only point is that the monks you referred did in fact engage in productive activities for their countries, whereas your modern version doesn't seem to do so, so much.

Cycloptichorn


Quite true, but a non-sequitor none the less, unless this thread has a new purpose.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 May, 2011 07:29 pm
@Miller,
Miller wrote:

Foofie wrote:

Miller wrote:

Quote:
Orthodox birthrate seen saving Jewish majority in Israel


The birthrate may be saving the Jewish population in numbers in Israel but the Orthodox/Ultraorthrodox, who study Torah night and day and provide for their families on welfare provided by the State of Israel contribute nothing to the economy of the country.

What demand in the real world is there for Torah scholars? How many jobs are advertised in the major newspapers of the world for Torah scholars?


Miller, if Christians can have their monks in the Middle Ages, to copy the ancient manuscripts from the pre-Middle Ages culture, why can't Jews have Torah Scholars? Israel does not need everyone contributing to its society like in the early days of the kibbutzim to survive. I am not even sure what your point was, other than it sounded petulant to me, in my opinion, as one reader.?


The Monks paid their own way. No welfare in the good old days.


So why BEGRUDGE Torah scholars, if politically correct Americans should not begrudge pregnant, unmarried mothers from having welfare?

You do know that Torah scholars are usually born into an ultra-orthodox family that may have brainwashed the child into thinking that it is his calling (to bring nachus to the family). So, is it a Torah scholars fault for not being born into a nice Sephardic family that contributes to Israel's economy through several entrepreneurial endeavors?
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 May, 2011 07:32 pm
@Miller,
Miller wrote:

Quote:
The Jewish birth rate was expected to exceed that of Muslims in Israel over the next 18 years, a report said.


Unfortunately, orthodox/ultraorthodox Jewish women, unlike Reform Jewish women have no choice in the matter.


"Unfortunately"? Jewish women can leave the orthodox fold anytime they would want to. They might become estranged from their respective families; however, that can happen when a Jewish girl decides to have a career in California, and leave NYC?
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Israel's Reality - Discussion by Miller
THE WAR IN GAZA - Discussion by Advocate
Israel's Shame - Discussion by BigEgo
Eye On Israel/Palestine - Discussion by IronLionZion
 
Copyright © 2019 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.05 seconds on 04/21/2019 at 10:11:04