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HAS OBAMA ANTAGONIZED, ALIENATED THE JEWISH VOTE ?

 
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Thu 26 May, 2011 02:14 pm
@maxdancona,
Describing Arabs as "fecund," is not demagoguery, it is (in comparison to Western and Israeli birth rates) simply accurate.

I don't know enough about the ancient history of the region, but I wouldn't be surprised if the earliest Israelites displaced some other tribe when they settled in Israel. Nor would I be surprised if the tribe they displaced had previously displaced another tribe with earlier claims to the land.

This is the history of not only people, but all life on earth.

The West's sense of shame for how Jews have been treated over the centuries, culminating in The Holocaust, probably contributed to the sketchy support they provided modern Israel, and if they feel a similar sense of guilt for what happened to a relative handful of displaced "Palestinians," then they should provide a similar measure of sketchy support and stop trying to force Israel to relieve them of their guilt.

Billions of dollars have been spent on propping up corrupt Arab dictators. Would that money not have been better spent on buying the Palestinians their own nation? And what of the Palestinians' Arab brothers who claim to care so much about them that their fate is the center of their foreign policies? They could very easily have welcomed them to settle within their borders and treated them as equal brothers, but they want them less than do the Israelis.

What they do want is an emotional issue that can divert the passions of their people away from their corrupt oppression and towards mankind's favorite bogeyman, The Jew.

Theses bastards don't want a peaceful solution of the problem, anymore than they want to see jihadi fanaticism disappear.

Israelis will never accept the so-called Right of Return, nor should they. It would be national suicide of the sort Europe is currently flirting with.

The intent of The Right of Return is not to restore some perceived birth right of a wronged people, it is to overwhelm Israelis in their own country. It is to destroy Israel from within and with democracy that no other nation in the region (save a US liberated Iraq) practices.

I am amazed at how so many liberals who scoffed at and scorned neo-con
policy as Manchean or facile, cling to truly facile support of the Right of Return.





Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 May, 2011 02:17 pm
@talk72000,
Your point is?
ehBeth
 
  0  
Reply Thu 26 May, 2011 02:23 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Describing Arabs as "fecund," is not demagoguery, it is (in comparison to Western and Israeli birth rates) simply accurate.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel

Quote:
Population Growth Rate(2008)

Total population growth rate: 1.8%[19]
During the 1990s, the Jewish population growth rate was about 3% per year, as a result of massive immigration to Israel, primarily from the republics of the former Soviet Union. There is also a high population growth rate among certain Jewish groups, especially adherents of Haredi Judaism.

The growth rate of the Arab population in Israel is 2.6%, while the growth rate of the Jewish population in Israel is 1.7%. The growth rate of both the Jewish and Arab population has slowed from 3.8% in 1999 to 2.6% in 2008 for Arab and 2.7% to 1.7% for the Jewish population. The fastest growing segment of population are Arab Muslims with the latest growth rate of 2.8% for 2008.[19]




Quote:
According to research culled by Haaretz, between the mid-1980s and 2000, the birthrate in the Muslim sector was stable at 4.6-4.7 children per woman; After 2001 a gradual decline became evident, reaching 3.84 children per woman in 2008. By point of comparison, in 2008 there was a slowly rising birthrate of 2.88 children among the Jewish population.[23]



Quote:
Infant Mortality 4.3 to 1000 births

Jews 3.1
Arabs 7.7



~~~

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/07/front2454229.0708333333.html

Quote:
Orthodox birthrate seen saving Jewish majority in Israel



SPECIAL TO WORLD TRIBUNE.COM
Tuesday, May 8, 2007

WASHINGTON — The Jewish birth rate was expected to exceed that of Muslims in Israel over the next 18 years, a report said.


A study by the Washington-based American-Israel Demographic Research Group said Jewish fertility, the highest in the developed world, was rapidly approaching that of Arabs in Israel. The group, in a report entitled "Forecast for Israel 2025," projected a 79 percent Jewish majority as well as long-term population stability between Jewish-Arab population groups in Israel.

Robert Gentel
 
  4  
Reply Thu 26 May, 2011 02:25 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
The intent of The Right of Return is not to restore some perceived birth right of a wronged people, it is to overwhelm Israelis in their own country.


This is nonsense. They want to return to land and homes they see as belonging to them, the demographic side effect is simply not the motivation for it.

In any case, Arabs have long moderated this position (as in about a decade ago) and the Arab world has indicated that they would accept some kind of settlement with these refugees that does not include a right of return (see the Saudi peace proposal, for example, that dropped "right of return" verbiage for "fair and equitable settlement" or something to that effect.

Most of the world does not expect Israel to accept the "right of return" because of the demographic effect it will have on Israel but that doesn't mean that the demographic effect is the intent. No, they mainly want their homes and land back.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 May, 2011 02:29 pm
@RABEL222,
"Israel is a terrorist state."

With this comment you have disqualified yourself from serious consideration.

You imply that Israel is desirous of exterminating all Palestinians. This notion is breathtaking in it's idiocy.

If indeed there is a 10-1 kill rate in the region it speaks more to competence than intent.

Do you actually believe that if Palestinians ceased their attacks on Israel, that Israel would, nevertheless, continue to seek to kill them?

Even if every member of the Israeli government has an insane hatred for Palestinians, they know they are limited, by world reaction, to retaliation. No Palestinan breaking into an Israeli house and shooting mother and baby, and no Israeli killed Palestinians.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Thu 26 May, 2011 02:38 pm
@revelette,
You are mistaken if you think the West has coddled Israel.

If the UN votes to create a Palestinian state, it will be about as significant as the US recognizing Israel. Symbolic, morale elevating, perhaps even intoxicating, but of little practical substance.

The US, unlike the UN, actually has the power to back up its words, but if the fledgling Israel had been obliterated within a year of US recognition, the US would not have lifted a finger to prevent it.

No one gave Israel its weapons. They bought them or they developed them.

Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Thu 26 May, 2011 02:56 pm
@ehBeth,
Population growth is not the same as birth rate.

Do some research and compare Muslim birth rates within Israel with those elsewhere. This statistic is actually a pretty good indication of how good Muslims in Israel have it. Western birth rates are dropping because of our affluence.

Open the Israeli borders to a flood of unskilled Palestinians (based on Right of Return) and watch the Muslim birth rate in Israel soar.

My argument is not a result of a belief that Arabs are akin to rats when it comes to breeding. Poor people are. It's not a value judgment in any sense.

Whether it is the reason they are poor or the result of being poor, poor people don't make the sort of disciplined ( or selfish if you will) decisions affluent people make.

The notion that poor people are essentially identical to affluent people in terms of behaviors and mores is a ridiculous fiction of the Left.

Are you suggesting that Israel ( or me) is being foolish in it's concern for the demographics of the Right of Return?
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 May, 2011 03:09 pm
@Robert Gentel,
I'm glad to see we share an inclination to decry opposing positions as "nonsense."

"They," the relative handful of Palestinians who actually have some legitimate connection to what is now Israeli land, are not driving the Right of Return.

As you know, there are former Palestinians living is Israel as Israeli citizens. Are they all quislings? Why did the people who want to return leave in the first place?

The Right of Return is a damned clever weapon. It plucks the heart strings of people like you, and can win the war all by itself.

The demographic effect is very much the intent of the players responsible for negotiating for the "Palestinian" position.

0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 May, 2011 05:06 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Your point is?

Bringing Holocaust doesn't cut it anymore. Jews also committed genocide. Beside Hitler has Jewish DNA and all the right wing Jews funded him. Hitler let the religious Jews go to Palestine and had them in a comfortable Theresienstadt camp. You claim not to be a Jew but you are either married to a Jew or live with one or something.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresienstadt_concentration_camp
Lash
 
  0  
Reply Thu 26 May, 2011 05:08 pm
@Robert Gentel,
I sat there, checking his rhetoric to Congress, ...had to smirk. It's like a bluff. He can offer big, knowing the other guys will never agree... It comes through. I was just remembering a time the words wouldn't pass his lips.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 May, 2011 05:11 pm
@RABEL222,
All states are terrorist states per your qualifications.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  3  
Reply Thu 26 May, 2011 05:17 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:

Israelis will never accept the so-called Right of Return, nor should they. It would be national suicide of the sort Europe is currently flirting with.


Finn,

I find this line of argument to be the most troubling. I mean, these exact things have been said before.

* That Jews are breeding too rapidly for Europe's population
* That having so many Jews is a threat to Europe's culture and identity?
* That Jews are breeding intentionally as a plot to overwhelm European culture.

Tell me how it is any less offensive when you say this about Arabs instead of Jews?

My greatest fear is that humanity has made zero progress in the past 60 years and that all we have done is changed the targets of our hatred.
revelette
 
  2  
Reply Thu 26 May, 2011 07:27 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
You are mistaken if you think the West has coddled Israel.


This from Wikipedia, I know people don't like the source but it does have links and serves as a starting point.

Quote:
Two days later, on May 14, 1948, the United States, under Truman, became the first country to extend de facto recognition to the State of Israel, 11 minutes after it unilaterally declared itself independent. With this unexpected decision, US representative to the United Nations Warren Austin, whose team had been working on an alternative trusteeship proposal, shortly thereafter left his office at the UN and went home. Secretary of State Marshall sent a State Department official to the United Nations to prevent the entire United States delegation from resigning.[14] De jure recognition came on January 31, 1949.

Following UN mediation by American Ralph Bunche, the 1949 Armistice Agreements ended the 1948 Arab Israeli War. Related to enforcement of the armistice, the United States signed the Tripartite Declaration of 1950 with Britain and France. In it, they pledged to take action within and outside the United Nations to prevent violations of the frontiers or armistice lines, and outlined their commitment to peace and stability in the area, their opposition to the use or threat of force, and reiterated their opposition to the development of an arms race in the region.

Under rapidly changing geopolitical circumstances, U.S. policy in the Middle East generally, was geared toward supporting Arab states independence, the development of oil-producing countries, preventing Soviet influence from gaining a foothold in Greece, Turkey and Iran, as well as preventing an arms race and maintaining a neutral stance in the Arab-Israeli conflict. U.S. policymakers initially used foreign aid to support these objectives.

Eisenhower Administration (1953-1961)

During these years of austerity, the United States provided Israel moderate amounts of economic aid, mostly as loans for basic food stuffs; a far greater share of state income derived from German war reparations, which were used for domestic development.

France became Israel's main arms supplier at this time and provided Israel with advanced military equipment and technology. This support was seen by Israel to counter the perceived threat from Egypt under President Gamal Abdel Nasser with respect to the "Czech arms deal" of September 1955.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_%E2%80%93_United_States_relations

When Israel first started out they were given aid and military weapons by various nations and from the German war reparations which helped to build their country in strength. The US has certainly given Israel aid both economically and militarily in recent years for whatever reason. (if they give monetary aid which Israel in turn turns around and buys weapons, it seems it all comes out in the end to mean the same.)

If the UN voting to create a Palestinian state was so insignificant, why is Israel and the Israel lobbies in the US so up in arms about it?
Quote:
Israel Allies Lobby Against U.N. Recognition Of Palestinian State


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/26/israel-lobbies-united-nations-vote-palestine_n_867532.html


Its a starting point and would give Palestinians an edge of legitimacy badly needed for them.







0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  2  
Reply Thu 26 May, 2011 07:39 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Perhaps your right concerning Obama, he does tend to compromise on all sides in order to make deals leaving him little liked by anybody.

However, September is a long time away when so much is able to happen in this age if people want it to badly enough. On the bad side of that, Israel will be able to build more houses on disputed lands.

0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 May, 2011 08:22 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Let's face it, Jews have always had political and economical influence that is disproportionate to their actual numbers. It's how they have survived in a world bound and determined to exterminate them, and it is a reason for the animosity they have faced for centuries.

Evangelicals are, in the main, pro-Israel for religious reasons, but this doesn't mean they don't have an affinity or admiration for Israelis that is separate from Biblical influence.

Secular Leftists would like to suggest that Evangelicals only support Israel because of Biblical prophesies that require the state of Israel to presage the End of Days, and that they actually look forward to the Christ-Killers burning in hell.

Their beliefs may tell them that anyone who doesn't accept Jesus as their savior will not make it to Heaven, but anti-Semitism in America and Europe resides with the Left, not the Right.


Not really. There are no more Episcopaleans/Presbyterians (aka, WASPS of UK descent) than Jews in the U.S.A., and they wield more wealth and power than Jews can dream of. But, the canard of the Jew's almost magical influence is based on the fact, in my opinion, that it is to the benefit of the U.S.A. and Britain to have Israel survive, yet allow "the Jews" to be thought of as these Shakespearean figures manipulating politics, etc., behind the scenes. If it would not be good for the U.S.A. and Britain to have Israel exist, it would not. Let us not forget that the existence of Israel in 1948 took 500,000 survivors of the death camps out of London (mucking up that city for many a proper Englishman).

And, to be perfectly blunt, perhaps it is not that Jews have a disproportionate influence, based on their small numbers, but America's Gentiles have too little influence, based on their greater numbers? Like I have told those who say to me that "Jews think they are so smart," my reply is that Jews know that many Jews are of average intelligence; however, the rest of the population (aka, Gentiles) have one half their numbers on the left side of the bellcurve. Jews may just be clustered around the center of the bellcurve, with a few on the right side of the bellcurve? So, if Jews have a disproportionate influence for their small numbers, it may be based on the reality that within the population there are just a few sub-cultures that compete well in society?

In fifty years, or less, Asian-Americans may also be thought of as having a disproportionate amount of influence for their numbers? But, let's just say they are not being given a hard act to follow, based on how the popular culture downplays education/homework/ambition? Oh, and let's not forget Indians from India. The canard about Jews may be just "face-saving" for White America?
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 May, 2011 09:14 pm
Quote:
Orthodox birthrate seen saving Jewish majority in Israel


The birthrate may be saving the Jewish population in numbers in Israel but the Orthodox/Ultraorthrodox, who study Torah night and day and provide for their families on welfare provided by the State of Israel contribute nothing to the economy of the country.

What demand in the real world is there for Torah scholars? How many jobs are advertised in the major newspapers of the world for Torah scholars?
Miller
 
  2  
Reply Thu 26 May, 2011 09:18 pm
In the USA, most American Jews will vote for Obama in 2012, as they did in 2008. However, I suspect that their financial contributions to Obama's campaign for re-election will be reduced.
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 May, 2011 09:25 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

Can a Democrat candidate survive without Jewish support ?


Since Jews are a minority in the USA, their vote isn't really needed for Obama to win, as long as 90% of American Blacks get out the vote.

If American Jews don't vote or either don't vote for Obama, it's not likely they'll be giving big bucks to Obama either.
0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 May, 2011 10:34 pm
Both Jews and Arabs are committing fraticide. They are all descendants of Abraham.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 May, 2011 11:48 pm
@Miller,
Miller wrote:
In the USA, most American Jews will vote for Obama in 2012, as they did in 2008.
However, I suspect that their financial contributions to Obama's campaign for re-election will be reduced.
To my mind, that seems very plausible.

I 'm surprized that obama 'd put himself into that position.





David
0 Replies
 
 

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