21
   

when is Schroedinger's cat dead, and when is it not?

 
 
Reply Thu 19 May, 2011 06:11 pm
Think about Schroedinger's cat-
When is it dead, and when is it dead?
What defines these specific times, and is the "outside world" perception credible enough alone when considering the outcome of the experiment.
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2011 06:25 pm
@Tifinden,
It just shows that science doesn't have a good concept of subatomic particles thus the dichotomy. They need to rethink the model Subatomic particles cannort be observed as a photon will knock out the electron. It all theorizing in the dark much like a blind man describing an elephant.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2011 07:13 pm
@Tifinden,
It's a "theoretical cat", so it's not alive in the first place.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2011 08:04 pm
@rosborne979,
Its a theorethical proposition about a true cat....
0 Replies
 
raprap
 
  2  
Reply Thu 2 Jun, 2011 09:29 pm
@Tifinden,
It's a binary cat--it is either dead (0) or alive (1).

Rap
0 Replies
 
north
 
  0  
Reply Thu 2 Jun, 2011 09:46 pm

the cat is dead

but we have the mentality of " prove it " how do you know ?

exceptions to the norm is what is confusing us and therefore lack of confidence in our reasoning , of what is really quite obvious as an outcome , unfortunately
0 Replies
 
whyisitso
 
  2  
Reply Sat 4 Jun, 2011 07:50 pm
@Tifinden,
actually, shroedinger's cat is related to the multiverse theory (uhh, i know, we've all heard that before)
so you have the cat in the box.
he's either dead, or alive.
you open the box. damn.
he's dead.
as we know, the cat is either dead, or alive. two choices. one outcome.

now, imagine a dot. that dot is the first outcome of our world. two possibilities.
ooh, so the universe WAS created.
second possibility, third and so on. each decision creates a new universe, wich is the opposite of the rue outcome.
with that being said, there would be an infinite number of universes with each one, an opposite decision.
so shroedingers cat might be dead to us, but he's alive in another universe.

peace out,
-tony west side.
DrewDad
 
  3  
Reply Sun 5 Jun, 2011 08:30 am
@whyisitso,
Heisenberg and Schroedinger were driving along when they were stopped by a cop.

The cop asks Heisenberg, "Do you know how fast you were driving?"

Heisenberg replies, "No, but I know exactly where I was!"

The cop thinks this odd reply is justification for a search of the car. Following the search, he approaches the two and asks, "Did you know there's a dead cat in the trunk?"

Schroedinger says, "God damn it!"
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Jun, 2011 08:32 am
@DrewDad,
And Schoedinger's Cat is supposed to help explain the Observer Effect.



maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Jun, 2011 08:53 am
@DrewDad,
Quote:
And Schoedinger's Cat is supposed to help explain the Observer Effect.


Actually it was the opposite. Schroedinger's cat was not invented to explain anything. It was invented to show the apparent absurdity of the implications of the mathematics behind Quantum mechanics. It is an obvious paradox.

That video is pretty good. Any understanding of quantum mechanics begins with an understanding of the double slit experiment and the photoelectric effect.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Jun, 2011 08:58 am
@talk72000,
Quote:
It just shows that science doesn't have a good concept of subatomic particles thus the dichotomy. They need to rethink the model Subatomic particles cannort be observed as a photon will knock out the electron. It all theorizing in the dark much like a blind man describing an elephant.


It doesn't show this at all. And I think it is a little funny that you are telling "science" what it should rethink especially since your bit about photons knocking out electrons makes no scientific sense.

I assure you that "science" has a better concept of subatomic particles than you do.
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2011 12:01 pm
@maxdancona,
A photon would would either either push an electron to a higher orbit in an atom or knock it of orbit. That is basic chemistry. It takes a quantum of energy to move to different orbits.
zt09
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jun, 2011 12:37 pm
@Tifinden,
Quote:
When is it dead, and when is it dead?


Depends on observer. From the point of view of a single photon there in no such thing as "when" at all.
north
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jun, 2011 08:09 pm
@zt09,
zt09 wrote:

Quote:
When is it dead, and when is it dead?


Depends on observer. From the point of view of a single photon there in no such thing as "when" at all.


exactly

and that is what realivity is all about , the " observer " , but not the object its self, which is more important really
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Jun, 2011 06:02 am
@talk72000,
Quote:
A photon would would either either push an electron to a higher orbit in an atom or knock it of orbit.


Of course. But you don't need a photon to observe an electron. That is not at all what is happening here. Quantum physics breaks human intuition. The laws that subatomic particles follow just don't make sense.

You can say anything you want about photons, it is irrelevant to "explain" the odd results of these experiments.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Jun, 2011 06:07 am
@north,
Quote:


and that is what realivity is all about , the " observer " , but not the object its self, which is more important really


You are confusing relativity with quantum mechanics. The rules are quite different (which leads to a great quest in physics to merge the two).

Saying the cat is alive to one observer and dead to another observer (which is a very relativistic way to look at it) is incorrect. For one thing, it doesn't explain the double slit experiment that DrewDad posted.

The way we look at it is that the cat is both alive and dead at the same time in any "frame of reference". I am using the term "frame of reference" because the term "observer" isn't helpful since the whole point is that the cat isn't being observed.
zt09
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Jun, 2011 06:49 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
I am using the term "frame of reference" because the term "observer" isn't helpful since the whole point is that the cat isn't being observed.


And what if I say that as long as the S-cat is being observed by no observers (in other words if it does not interact with the surrounging matter) it does not exist. Can you prove the opposite? Smile
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Jun, 2011 07:20 am
@zt09,
Your proposal would violate the conservation law of mass/energy.

I can postulate all kinds of silly things, like magic rainbow unicorns that invisibly fly around painting everything, and while you can't disprove magic rainbow unicorns it doesn't really explain anything.
zt09
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Jun, 2011 12:36 pm
@DrewDad,
Quote:
and while you can't disprove magic rainbow unicorns it doesn't really explain anything


It does explain why nothing can exist without an observer and why reality havily depends on observer.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Jun, 2011 08:57 pm
@DrewDad,
Quote:
Your proposal would violate the conservation law of mass/energy.


You are wrong DrewDad.

Mass and Energy are relativistic quantities meaning they are measured differently by different observers. Sure. there is the concept of rest mass (or invariant mass) in Special Relativity, but this concept has some difficulties in GR and decreases in expanding space.

The conservation laws in no way say that different observers will measure the same mass. This is simply a misunderstanding of the conservation laws.
 

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