20
   

when is Schroedinger's cat dead, and when is it not?

 
 
DNA Thumbs drive
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 03:31 pm
@Olivier5,
Well if you believe in the near death out of body experience, then there is no reason to say no. Why however a cat needs be used is however redundantly moronic.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 04:41 pm
@DNA Thumbs drive,
I don't believe in near death out of body experiences.
DNA Thumbs drive
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 05:13 pm
@Olivier5,
Do you believe that there is qualitative proof that schrody had a cat in the first place, and would it matter if a hamster or chipmunk was used? Or did schrodie just like torturing cats in boxes?

http://www.splitreason.com/Product_Images/10822ad1917e-xl.jpg
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2014 06:26 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
You did not answer my own question though.

How can a cat NOT be considered a valid observer of his own death, that's what bugs me in this thought experiment...

I think that the point is that the cat was in a superposition state at the moment that the human observer sealed him in the box. Even if he ceased being in a superposition state before the box was opened, the thing is still probabilistic from the point of view of the external observer who lacks that information. Of course, the Copenhagen Interpretation could also be wrong.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Dec, 2014 08:03 am
@Brandon9000,
Quote:
Of course, the Copenhagen Interpretation could also be wrong.

In what I learnt as kosher QM, what makes the wave function of any particle collapse is simply any interaction with another particle or body. That other body doesn't need to belong to a physicist doing an observation.

This thought experiment would work just the same with Schrodinger himself in the box instead of his cat. Assuming an essential difference between a man and a cat is a religious reflex, a form of superstition or metaphysics.
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Dec, 2014 10:49 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
Quote:
Of course, the Copenhagen Interpretation could also be wrong.

In what I learnt as kosher QM, what makes the wave function of any particle collapse is simply any interaction with another particle or body. That other body doesn't need to belong to a physicist doing an observation.

This thought experiment would work just the same with Schrodinger himself in the box instead of his cat. Assuming an essential difference between a man and a cat is a religious reflex, a form of superstition or metaphysics.

I don't thing that Schrodinger was ever trying to imply a difference between a cat in a box and a person in a box. I think he just said cat because it would be more unusual, not to mention illegal, to do this kind of experiment with a person.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2014 06:50 am
@Brandon9000,
It's a thought experiment so there's no legal issue.

I just think Schrodinger did not give sufficient thoughts to this. The idea that having an observer or not would enduce reality to behave a certain ways is absurd, and metaphysical.
FBM
 
  3  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2014 11:09 pm
http://i1330.photobucket.com/albums/w561/hapkido1996/1981997_989796034374741_1744496034026520134_n_zps6c208d47.jpg
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Dec, 2014 05:52 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
It's a thought experiment so there's no legal issue.

I just think Schrodinger did not give sufficient thoughts to this. The idea that having an observer or not would enduce reality to behave a certain ways is absurd, and metaphysical.

It's an illustration of the Copenhagen Interpretation, which has been the standard interpretation all over the world since soon after the invention of quantum mechanics, although the Many Worlds Interpretation has been gaining ground since it was enunciated in the late 1950s.
Ethels
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Dec, 2014 02:36 am
@Tifinden,
God knows.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Dec, 2014 07:22 am
@Brandon9000,
It's a very poor illustration, and the Copenhagen interpretation is just bad philosophy. Observation is not a physical force. And if it was, which species would qualify? If cats are observers, are bacterias too?
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Dec, 2014 02:58 am
@Olivier5,
It's only "bad philosophy" to a naive realist. The idea that observer and observed are inextricable could be said to be self evident from the point of non-duality. (Note too that the concept of "physical force" is also predicated on naive realism).

The key issue is of course with the word "existence" which naive realists assume has meaning independent of observation. The counter-argument that "things should disappear" when your back is turned is irrelevant since "things" are still "existent" in the mind's eye of the skeptic who is suggesting the disappearance scenario. We are all so steeped in the naive realism of daily life, and the language which supports it, that non-duality seems far-fetched or dysfunctional.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Dec, 2014 03:27 am
@Olivier5,
NB I don't intend to argue the point further. Full engagement can be found here .
http://able2know.org/topic/247211-1
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Dec, 2014 07:10 am
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

It's only "bad philosophy" to a naive realist. The idea that observer and observed are inextricable could be said to be self evident from the point of non-duality. (Note too that the concept of "physical force" is also predicated on naive realism).

The key issue is of course with the word "existence" which naive realists assume has meaning independent of observation. The counter-argument that "things should disappear" when your back is turned is irrelevant since "things" are still "existent" in the mind's eye of the skeptic who is suggesting the disappearance scenario. We are all so steeped in the naive realism of daily life, and the language which supports it, that non-duality seems far-fetched or dysfunctional.


Actually, it doesn't seem far-fetched or dysfunctional at all. Anyone can look at it and realize that it may very well be the way things are. (It has always had a great deal of appeal to me.)

What is dysfunctional are the people who tout it as THE answer to the REALITY of existence (or the weaselly way they tend to phrase that notion)...to the exclusion of any other possibilities.

The "naive realists", Fresco, may be much, much closer to the truth than you guys.

We really do not know...although that will not stop you from pretending you do.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Dec, 2014 10:19 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
What is dysfunctional are the people who tout it as THE answer to the REALITY of existence (or the weaselly way they tend to phrase that notion)...to the exclusion of any other possibilities.


No. What is dysfunctional is the person who thinks the phrase "reality of existence" has any meaning at all at this level of analysis. No "answer" is being offered because "the problem" has been identified by an established process of linguistic deconstruction as a pseudo-problem. You are playing a game with nobody but yourself.

http://s26.postimg.org/weszn8lvd/51_Xqsibk_EVL.jpg
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Dec, 2014 10:28 am
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

Quote:
What is dysfunctional are the people who tout it as THE answer to the REALITY of existence (or the weaselly way they tend to phrase that notion)...to the exclusion of any other possibilities.


No. What is dysfunctional is the person who thinks the phrase "reality of existence" has any meaning at all at this level of analysis. No "answer" is being offered because "the problem" has been identified by an established process of linguistic deconstruction as a pseudo-problem. You are playing a game with nobody but yourself.

http://s26.postimg.org/weszn8lvd/51_Xqsibk_EVL.jpg



Yeah...you think your "level of analysis" is THE level that everyone should adopt.

You are like a theist, Fresco...or a strong atheist. You spout guesses as though they have to be the truth. And when someone points that out, you go into your semantic nonsense...the semantic nonsense that is a natural consequence of your faith.

You are a joy to watch. I get a huge kick out of the posturing you do.


http://www.mongabay.com/images/gabon/600/gabon_1743.JPG

(My apologies to the primate.)
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Dec, 2014 10:43 am
@fresco,
What is 'non-naïve realism'. Fresco? Smile

Since I've met you, you've been turning around in circles using words you did not understand correctly.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Dec, 2014 12:10 pm
@Olivier5,
La bêtise est dans les yeux de celui qui regarde.



Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Dec, 2014 01:06 pm
@fresco,
There is a scientific side to this issue, and then there is a metaphysical side.

The scientific side could be summarized as: when/how does the wave function collapse?

The metaphysics could be summarized as: what is existence (about)?

Au fait, c'est quoi exactement, un réaliste non-naïf?
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Dec, 2014 02:03 pm
@Olivier5,
Naive realism is the view that "the world and the things in it" exist independently of humans. Realism per se is a term used in science to discriminate between hypothetical events and entities and those supported by empirical data. It has a foot in naive realism because "thing-hood" and "event-hood" are assumed to be independent of observation. Anti-realism in science contrasts with realism and is the view that "reality" can only be applied to "observable" entities or events. It has nothing to do with non-duality which is antithetical to naive realism.

Since metaphysics of "existence" is contiguous with that of "reality", and since the answer to questions of "how" is ultimately epistemological which is a branch of metaphysics, I cannot agree with a distinction between "science" and "metaphysics".

The "when" question may be interesting in its own right with respect to the relativity issues regarding time.



 

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