Which is the correct sentence?

@tanguatlay,

Number 1. Here is a reference.

0 Replies

@tanguatlay,

Tell us what you think and why, Ms Tan.

1 Reply

@JTT,

JTT wrote:

Tell us what you think and why, Ms Tan.

Hi JTT

2. Neither Siti nor Nadya were happy with their seating arrangements.

I think the above sentence is correct because all the words in bold are consistent.

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@tanguatlay,

I think this is trickier than it looks.

If "none" can be plural, and it can, why not "neither"?

Because it's a choice between two singulars, I suppose.

Okay the verb has to be singular.

1 Reply

@McTag,

Quote:

I think this is trickier than it looks.

And two lines later, you've got it all sussed out. That's what I like about you, McTag, that steel trap mind of yours. Smile

1 Reply

@JTT,

Hi JTT

2. Neither Siti nor Nadya were happy with their seating arrangements.

I think the above sentence is correct because all the words in bold are consistent.

Could you let me know whether I am correct? Thanks.

1 Reply

@tanguatlay,

tanguatlay wrote:

Neither Siti nor Nadya were happy with their seating arrangements.

I think the above sentence is correct because all the words in bold are consistent.

But they are not.

Two singular subjects connected by either/or or neither/nor require a singular verb. Siti and Nadya are singular.

The "their" in that sentence is the "singular their", possibly used because the writer was unaware whether Siti and Nadya were both female.

Arrangments are usually plural.

If you knew they were both the same sex, you could write

Neither Siti nor Nadya was happy with her seating arrangements.
Neither Bill nor Jack was happy with his seating arrangements.

Otherwise

Neither Siti nor Nadya was happy with their seating arrangements.

1 Reply

@contrex,

You see? It's tricky.

Most people would write "were" and I'm not sure they'd be wrong.

1 Reply

@McTag,

McTag wrote:

Most people would write "were" and I'm not sure they'd be wrong.

The "rule" with either/or & neither/nor is that singular subjects need singular verbs, and plural subjects need plural verbs. Siti is a single
person. You would write "Siti is satisfied", not "Siti are satisfied". Anyhow that's the "rule", which I put in quotes in case it riles JTT. I know many people ignore such "rules", but you can scarcely say that following them is wrong.

Two singular subjects connected by or require a singular verb.

Example:
My aunt or my uncle is arriving by train today.

Two singular subjects connected by either/or or neither/nor require a singular verb.

Examples:
Neither Juan nor Carmen is available.
Either Kiana or Casey is helping today with stage decorations.

When I is one of the two subjects connected by either/or or neither/nor, put it second and follow it with the singular verb am.

Example:
Neither she nor I am going to the festival.

When a singular subject is connected by or or nor to a plural subject, put the plural subject last and use a plural verb.

Example:
The serving bowl or the plates go on that shelf.

When a singular and plural subject are connected by either/or or neither/nor, put the plural subject last and use a plural verb.

Example:
Neither Jenny nor the others are available.

2 Replies

@contrex,

Quote:

The "rule" with either/or & neither/nor is that singular subjects need singular verbs, and plural subjects need plural verbs.

You [singular subject] are [plural verb] wrong.

I am right, aren't [plural verb] I? [singular subject]

2 Replies

@contrex,

Quote:

Anyhow that's the "rule", which I put in quotes in case it riles JTT.

Stop being such a wussy, C. If you believe in something, defend it. That never riles me.

Now remember, I'm not riled.

I think that this is a good example to illustrate why it's not appropriate to say this is the "rule", even when you put it in quotes. It's not really ever a matter of a rule, so much as it's a matter of broad consensus. To suggest that what SFE uses is the rule for all English is simply not how English works.

Why is this so difficult to grasp? No sensible person would ever argue that the rules of BrE are the rules of all English and that AuE then often breaks those rules. So it is within each dialect. BrE formal rules are different from BrE informal rules.

Quote:

The "rule" with either/or & neither/nor is that singular subjects need singular verbs, and plural subjects need plural verbs. Siti is a single
person. You would write "Siti is satisfied", not "Siti are satisfied".

I think I agree with you that the convention is as you say, but I'm only looking at it from the perspective of my dialect. I don't fully agree with your reasoning and my last reply, which wasn't intended as a remark upon the accuracy of what you had stated, rather it was simply a pattern to show these catch all "rules" don't always catch all.

I wonder why it is that compound subjects with an 'and' take a plural verb but compound subjects with 'or/nor' have to take a singular verb.

I'm not even sure that McTag is wrong. Notional plurality certainly enters into many of our choices in English.

*I'm not wrong, are I?*

Doesn't work, but is that solely because of convention or is it something else?

Confused

I wonder what corpus studies show. We all know that at least some of these rules wrt number haven't always been completely accurate descriptions of language.

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@JTT,

Quote:

You [singular subject] are [plural verb] wrong.

Whutt??
I don't really want an argument this early in the day, but as any fule kno, "you are" is both singular and plural.

1 Reply

@JTT,

JTT wrote:

Quote:
The "rule" with either/or & neither/nor is that singular subjects need singular verbs, and plural subjects need plural verbs.

You [singular subject] are [plural verb] wrong.

I am right, aren't [plural verb] I? [singular subject]

Neither of your examples demolish the the "rule" for either/or and neither/nor, which you actually quoted.

1 Reply

@McTag,

McTag wrote:

"you are" is both singular and plural.

You prescriptivist, you!

0 Replies

@contrex,

I didn't say that my examples demolish the "rule". By using quotes, you're helping to diminish the rule. My examples show that these things are not as clear cut as the rules often say.

I ask again,

I wonder why it is that compound subjects with an 'and' take a plural verb but compound subjects with 'or/nor' have to take a singular verb.

1 Reply

@JTT,

JTT wrote:

I wonder why it is that compound subjects with an 'and' take a plural verb but compound subjects with 'or/nor' have to take a singular verb.

I am not sure why you wonder this - it seems to me that [e.g.] "Bill and Joe" clearly constitutes a compound subject, that is is a list of two or more nouns, which perform the action indicated by the predicate, because they are to be considered as a plurality, whereas I feel there are compelling reasons why "(N)either Sarah (n)or Christine" does not. A large part of the reason why I feel this is that "(N)either" can be optionally followed by "one of".

Thus we write "Bill and Joe are happy with their seating arrangements" but "Neither Sarah nor Christine is happy with her seating arrangements". This last, surely, can be considered an contracted way of expressing the following: "Neither of these statements is true: Sarah is happy with her seating arrangements. Christine is happy with her seating arrangements."

Personally I don't feel that corpus studies are holy writ any more than dictionaries, grammar or style guides are. Both are susceptible to shortcomings, and to some extent a balance must be struck, especially when providing basic-level advice to ESOL learners.

1 Reply

In modern use the plural has been used as singular like 'you' for 'thou'. This is also done in Hindi e.g. 'Hum' for 'we' is used instead of 'Mein' pronounced 'mei' with a nasal 'n' and 'tum' for 'you' instead of singular 'aap' for 'thou'.

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@contrex,

Quote:

I am not sure why you wonder this

Quote:

because they are to be considered as a plurality,

This points to a reason why I wondered this, C. There's no magic to a rule. It's considered one way and then a convention develops.

Quote:

A large part of the reason why I feel this is that "(N)either" can be optionally followed by "one of".

?? Neither one of Sarah nor Christine ... ??

And can't the boys be described by "The grouping of Bill and Joe is unhappy with ... "

"Neither Sarah nor Christine is happy with her seating arrangements".

Do the ladies each have two seating arrangements and are they both unhappy with the total of four seating arrangements?

Look, I said I agree with you but there are some issues here. When a thoughtful guy like McTag raises these issues, they have to be addressed.

Quote:

Personally I don't feel that corpus studies are holy writ any more than dictionaries, grammar or style guides are. Both are susceptible to shortcomings, and to some extent a balance must be struck, especially when providing basic-level advice to ESOL learners.

Actually corpus studies are holy writ, as long as they are checked to see that one study has been done accurately. There is no other way to determine what's correct than usage in the broadest sense. To make any other claim is to suggest that rules somehow preceded language. [Dwight Bollinger]

Style manuals are largely, excuse my French, prescriptive pieces of ****. They are wags repeating the same silly nonsense over and over. Descriptive grammars are valuable sources of information.

1 Reply

@JTT,

JTT wrote:

?? Neither one of Sarah nor Christine ... ??

Yes. Why not?

Quote:

And can't the boys be described by "The grouping of Bill and Joe is unhappy with ... "

Come on! You're getting a bit desperate here. Increase the Adderall.

Quote:

Do the ladies each have two seating arrangements and are they both unhappy with the total of four seating arrangements?

I don't know about you, but where I come from, an arrangement is usually a bunch of sheet music, and the kind of arrangements that sentence refers to are nearly always plural. The arrangements I might make to seat you, for example.

Quote:

corpus studies are holy writ

Now I know you're crazy

Quote:

Dwight Bollinger

...the dead guy alleged to have inspired other linguists to restore a role for the application of common sense in the study of language. So what happened in your case?

Quote:

Style manuals are largely, excuse my French, prescriptive pieces of ****. They are wags repeating the same silly nonsense over and over.

Hmmm.... I agree with the sentiment but recoil from your nutty vehemence. More Adderall needed.

Quote:

Descriptive grammars are valuable sources of information.

But not (I reiterate) holy writ (except to nutty, obsessive people.)

1 Reply

Which is the correct sentence?

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