@XXSpadeMasterXX,
Krumple wrote:
I would not want to live for ever.
XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:
Really? are you absolutly sure without ever seeing Heaven?
Yes I am sure and I don't have to see it to know. The problem is the elements that make up this existence help to define who we are. If those elements were different (which they would have to be if heaven were true) then you would not be the same being at all in heaven. I don't mean just slightly different but almost completely 99% different. If you are that different then basically you are not the same individual.
For example, are there risky sports in heaven? Like rock climbing or surfing? How would they be risky in heaven? The part of these sports that make them enjoyable is the chance that while doing them you could get injured or killed. Now this is not the ONLY reason people do dangerous sports but part of the thrill of doing them is the danger element which would be non-existent in heaven. So nothing dangerous would exist in heaven. Therefore many of the things people find exciting such as roller coasters and sky diving wouldn't be as enjoyable as they are in this existence because the danger element is gone.
Krumple wrote:
I doubt you have even considered the consequences of what that would mean.
XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:
You and I are both humans and think alike a lot of times...I have thought of probably EVERY situation or (consequence) you have too...just because we differ at times does not mean that we don't think alike at many times in a journey called life...I think personally your trying to envision limitless things compared to things that have limits and boundries....which defeats itself...
I'm not exactly sure what you are referring to when you say I am trying to envision limitless things. I am saying a consequence of heaven is that the elements of our lives would be drastically different. For example the individuality that makes up your personality is shaped by the failures and successes from this existence. Whereas in a heaven those things that shaped your personality would not be present because failure is not an option.
Krumple wrote:
I have and there is absolutely no way that could make it a good thing.
XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:
If you say you have, and you see bad things or hell as we believers call it, then why couldn't the opposite end of the spectrum exhist in Heaven?
What I mean to say there is that I have pondered what existence in a heaven would be like. I have spent hours and hours imagining what things would be like and how things would function and certain problems arise that can not be addressed because of how heaven would have to operate. There are certain aspects that you could determine that heaven could not be.
Such as is there death in heaven? Is there injury in heaven? Do you get sick? Do you experience pain? Do you experience sadness or depression? Do you experience insecurity? It is these simple emotions that generate stimulation in our lives when we combat them which brings value to the activities we seek out to battle those emotions. If those emotions do not exist in heaven then the pursuit of pleasures or enjoyment has no meaning and no risk of failure. It would just be empty motions without purpose.
Krumple wrote:
The idea itself cheapens this life and renders it worthless.
XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:
I disagree, if ANYTHING to me it shows that do good here and be rewarded later, do bad and pay later...making it ESSENTIAL to DO GOOD THINGS HERE ON EARTH!
I personally do not like the idea that a person would be faced with eternal punishment for a finite crime. If a person does something bad, I think it is mean to punish them forever for that wrong doing. Likewise I think it just as unfair to reward someone permanently for some minor "good" they did. This does not even address what would constitute doing "bad" or doing "good" anyways. Everyone seems to have their own ideas of what they would include and if those things can not be 100% determined then how do you know you are doing what it takes to qualify?
Krumple wrote:
You honestly think that an after life would be similar to this one?
XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:
In some ways yes, and in some ways No, simply put...
From my thought experiments an existence in heaven could be no where near or like this existence. It would have to be almost 99% different for it to work how it is described.
Krumple wrote:
It is the struggle itself which gives this life value and meaning.
XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:
really? you like to struggle? I don't...
My point exactly. I did not say that I liked struggle, my point is that struggle is the enemy that we seek to overcome which brings value to our successes. When we succeed at something we gain pleasure and enjoyment from it because we know we have over come the struggle. But in heaven this struggle would not exist and therefore our value for success would not arise. We would only do things to do them and receive no enjoyment from them.
Krumple wrote:
If there is no struggle then it will become boring and have no value.
XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:
You feel you NEED to fail in order to succeed? I don't....
No but it is necessary to have the possibility of failure. In heaven there wouldn't be this possibility of failure. If failure is not a possibility then the enjoyment and pleasure we get out of our success could not arise. The thrill of victory would not exist because it relies on the chance of failure.
XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:
there is NO way for me to debate this next comment because it seems you ALREADY have your ideas on HEAVEN and have never seen it or anything of its nature...
Couldn't I say the same about you? I think you have not thought about it enough. Perhaps I have it all wrong and am willing to entertain that thought but the problem is I can't take the aspects of who I am and what makes me, "ME" and see myself being who I am. For example, music. The kinds of music that I enjoy have a lot of emotional drive which is based off failures and successes. Without such failures being possible much of the music that I enjoy would be meaningless. The music would be boring because you can't write a meaningful tune about the chance of failure if failure does not exist. Therefore I conclude that song writing in heaven would be boring because it would be nothing other than about success.
Krumple wrote:
If there is no struggle then it will become boring and have no value.
XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:
All I can say is I completely disagree...
Well I think that you disagree because you don't like the fact that what I have to say is a problem for heaven. You want it to be peachy and perfect without any turmoil or hardship. But as I have pointed out, it is the turmoil and hardship which makes this life have value and meaning. We cherish people in our lives because we know we have limited time with them and not only that but our relationships are prone to failures. So when our relationships succeed they bring us joy and pleasure because we have overcome the possibility of failure.
Krumple wrote:
Those who believe in an after life only consider one thing, that their ego will not die.
XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:
Has NOTHING to do with egos...matter of fact the whole concept of being one with everyone and God, shows Unity, and submission to God...2 things a lot of people WILL NEVER EVEN ATTEMPT here on earth...proving it is HARDER and GREATER things exhist in HEAVEN if it exhists....
It has everything to do with the ego. We value and cherish our experience of life and we don't want to think that one day we will stop experiencing existence. We don't like the thought that we will never do anything ever again. So we invent these ideas that a heaven exists where we will do the things we love with the people that we love for the rest of time.
Krumple wrote:
They don't like the idea that they will cease to exist one day and that scares the hell out of them.
XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:
It does not scare the hell out of me if we just rot in the ground...it scares the hell out of me if people deny God and hell exhists if the have to step foot in there...I fear for the non believers who may or may not be condemned, and ones who do malicious acts on earth, I pry ALL will be forgiven...so I in turn am too....
If a god does exist who has a place reserved for those who do not meet his expectation and wants them to suffer there for eternity then in my opinion I want nothing to do with said god. Why? Because in my opinion torturing a being endlessly for a bad choice is just plain mean. It's why I object to sharia law. I think cutting someones hand off for a crime is inhumane and mean because it punishes them for the rest of their life for some crime that is finite. Same for capital punishment, I think killing someone for a crime is inhumane and mean. Torturing a being for eternity for making a bad choice is inhumane and mean.
Krumple wrote:
So they embrace the idea that they will exist for ever as a way of easing their mind to the inevitable reality that they won't.
XXSpadeMasterXX wrote:
trying to embrace life forever is Harder or a greater feat then trying to except we all die and rot in the ground, so I don't understand what makes you think Grasping an afterlife is in ANYWAY is others easing their minds to the inevitable reality that they won't exhist....sorry the facts don't support that theory, maybe YOU think that way I do not...
Like I mentioned. We are attached to our egos and we cherish our experience of life and we don't want it to end. So people invent these heaven ideas to ease their mind because it basically means their experience will continue and not just stop. Not only that but people also want those people they don't like to suffer and the people they do like to be happy. Which if you ask me is really selfish and quite unsympathetic.
Why is it during a funeral even if all the people there know the person was a bad person they will still claim that they are in heaven? I have never seen a funeral where the pastor actually says the deceased is in hell. It would never happen because all they are there to do is try to comfort the living. So it doesn't matter how wicked or evil the person was they would still say they are residing in heaven. That right there is a key point that the concept itself is just a way to lie to oneself about the inevitability of ceasing to exist.
