@Ceili,
Quote:Just curious... Is there anyone you don't hate?
SO let me see if I understand...thinking that handing out taxpayer bought candy to the Roma is bad policy means that I hate Roma? Are you ruling out, before any debate is had, that it might possibly be a bad idea?
@hawkeye10,
It's not your tax dollars is it.
@Ceili,
Right. We should only question policies within our own countriesh, huh Ceili?
@Ceili,
Quote:It's not your tax dollars is it.
The Europeans are not allowed to talk about it, to object. It is our moral duty to take up the cause, to hold the debate, until they regain the freedom to speak.
@hawkeye10,
That is one of the dumbest things you've said yet... and you've said some doozies.
@roger,
Roger question anything you like. Screwing a group of people is another thing entirely.
@Setanta,
Live Bullet is one of my top five live albums and the last time that Bob Seger was still listenable
@Ceili,
Quote:Roger question anything you like. Screwing a group of people is another thing entirely.
It is the Roma who do the screwing, by refusing to work in the legal economy, by refusing to make sure their kids get to school and get educated, and it is said by living a lifestyle that that embraces all manor of crimes...The first two are undisputed facts.
I've written about zingari (gypsies) here on a2k bunches of times, as a kind of traveler myself.
My thoughts have varied, but I don't think detestation is any help at all.
Here's an old post of mine -
I've written about zingari (gypsies) here on a2k bunches of times, as a kind of traveler myself, sometimes for real and more lately, by reading.
My thoughts have varied, but I don't think detestation is any help at all.
Here's an old post of mine -
"A few other experiences:
In Rome on the metro - a kid of about ten came through the car. Stood about a third the way through and sang a song.
Started holding out his hand for money. I'm from Venice, I've given, kept my hands out of my pocket. Most of the other people, italians, in that car gave. I felt ashamed.
Zingari in Rome (gypsies). Long stories, I have been clustered by gypsies (yes, mother and two children, baby thrust in my face, son going for pocket, mother with other hand getting into my purse... all when I was trying to find a bathroom, that was on the first trip). Watching gypsies at the metro flutter up in their filmy clothes as well dressed businessmen squeezed onto the morning metro - as the overcoated ones sardined themselves into the car the gypsies came up behind and went for the pockets. In that case we watched, a kind of theater.
When we were trying to cross a major intersection, at Porta San Paolo I think it was, down by the Protestant Cemetary, a woman was lying in the road with her hand out along the cobblestones. By the time we timorously got across the intersection, a long time it took us, she had moved to the other side of the road, lain down, put her hand out....
I've read more about the gypsies since and have sympathy for them, at least sometimes.
In where was it, maybe Vigevano, I stopped to listen to a Roma man play a violin, rather beautifully to me. I gave him a bunch of lire, let's say $5. worth. We talked a little. He asked me in italian where I was from. I speak italian very badly. I said California. His eyes lit up. He told me he wanted to be from California. He was from Romania. I said Oh, from Romania! He said he wanted to be from California. I said but you are from Romania. He said he wanted to be from California; I said but you are from Romania... well, we ended up laughing and and I saw him in a few other places in town playing and we waved. I figured later that I was mixing up from and to, as in da California, which I think of as 'from'. I hope he didn't think I was telling him to go back to Romania. Anyway, he played lovely songs."
A decade later, I'm not sure that fellow was a gypsy as we didn't communicate that much. Maybe he was part so, or maybe not at all. Still, he was the life of Cremona for me. Or was it Vigevano. Cremona makes sense.
@ossobuco,
mmm, Cremona. I've been to the Stradivari museum, as the only visitor one early morning (9 a.m.). Major experience, even though I'm a dolt re violins. Dolt squared. But I get beauty.
And so may the so called gypsies.
(It was the time of day they played each of the violins.)
@roger,
Quote:Right. We should only question policies within our own countriesh, huh Ceili?
Only approved policies, Roger. Really serious issues, nahhh, no way.
This is even more petty than usual, hawk.
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@failures art,
Quote:This is even more petty than usual, hawk.
Your ability to evaluate is suspect. What to do about the Roma problem has been a question that has vexed policy makers for a long time. The problem became much worse when Eastern Europe joined the EU, and now with Turkey looking to join...
These are not small numbers
@hawkeye10,
Quote:But to Eastern Europe scholars like Igor Lukes, a College of Arts & Sciences professor of international relations and history, the French and other European governments’ treatment of Gypsies, a blatantly persecuted minority for centuries, is far more complicated and historically fraught than many contemporary human rights activists understand it to be.
The Roma claim allegiance to no state, often shun mainstream education, public health requirements, and financial accountability, and live either as squatters in decaying apartment complexes or in temporary camps where they can and do pull up stakes at any moment. In many ways, says Lukes, the Roma live much as they did in the 11th century, when they migrated to Europe from northern India. Their refusal to play by anyone’s rules but their own has tested the tolerance of even the most committed liberals. Since July, the French government has sent nearly 1,230 Roma back to their countries of origin, mainly Romania and Bulgaria.
http://www.bu.edu/today/node/11617
The Roma problem is a simple problem only for the simple minded. I would like to know what is the basis for the leadership claim that the Roma's can be induced to play by the rules and to allow their children to become educated by way of throwing public sector money at them. One the streets throwing money at the Roma will result in the same result every time....more Roma will show up for the payday. They will however not change their behavior one bit.
@hawkeye10,
So... the problem is that they
exist? What do you feel that their numbers in countries conveys?
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Osso, this is a picture I took of a Roma man in Belfast. I love his unique violin.
Travelers are not Roma, they are the descendants of victims of the famine who were displaced and continued to live apart from the rest of society for various reasons, also known as tinkers.
@failures art,
Quote:So... the problem is that they exist
No, the problem is that they refuse to follow the rules and customs, but yet always have their hand out. They need to take ofter the Amish, and keep to their ways and off the grid ONLY if they can find a way to be self sufficient, without demanding that everyone else supports. The problem with the World Bank and the EU is that they are stupid enough to enable this behavior while expecting the Roma to change who they are after all this time.
