ALL THINGS CIVIL WAR

@Setanta,

Quote:

Hey, Boss, i'm no thread Nazi,

See the pet peeves thread to know that Setanta is being mendacious again.

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@JTT,

I love ya man! But go sow your seeds of discord somewhere else.

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@panzade,

I'll take that as you not being facetious, Pan. I too think that you're a pretty fair and decent fella.

Discord is allowing continued deposits of bullshit to occur and just stepping around them.

It has happened in many more threads than just the one I mentioned.

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I like the Shelby Foote quote that "Before the Civil War we were United States. After the Civil War we became THE United States."

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@raprap,

I'd never seen that--a pungent distinction.

Foote's The Civil War: A Narrative, in three volumes, is the best "short" work that manages to cover all the relevant, significant data. He also wrote Shiloh: A novel in the early 1950s, one of the many entrants in the centenniel sweeps which got overlooked. However, over time, and by word of mouth, the book was recommended from one friend to another until he had acquired a reputation for good historical writing which he richly deserved.

Even so, i suspect that most of the country didn't know about him until the television series.

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@raprap,

raprap wrote:

BTW I always have heard that Samuel Mudd is the source of the phrase

'Your name is mud."

Rap

I dunno; I have a hunch that mud was kinda dirty
even b4 Sam was born.

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

I looked in an idiomatic phrase site and It claimed that this phrase predated Dr Mudd's association by more than 2 centuries.
I think that, no matter what the truth, Dr Sam oughta be given the honorary position of the source of this one. HE derves it.

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@Setanta,

ID never seen SHelby Foote before the Ken Burns series. He was a perefect choice as the " connective tissu" of the whole thing. Even though Id read his books I hd no idea that he was this character from a David Lee Burke mystery. A pwerfexct southern gentlemen . They only failed to show him with a mint julep.

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@farmerman,

I don't believe that the facts fit well enuf to support that conclusion.
Repairing a fx bone probably does not have that effect.

If what he 'd done really had been reprehensible,
then the Unionists 'd surely have hanged him; thay even hanged female women for it.

That fenomenon (phenomenon) 'd fit better on the innocent Edwin Booth,
who was mortified because of his name (his consanguinity).

David

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

Well the entire episode ws not exactly one in which reason prevailed..It is a fact that had MAry Surratts son been around (He lammed ) HE would have been hung and his mom would have been spared.

Stanton was going around suspending all sorts of civil rights during the episode. Remember there were several dozen " potential conspirators" who were questioned and some detained until the "Short list " was selected.

1 Reply

@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

ID never seen SHelby Foote before the Ken Burns series. He was a perefect choice as the " connective tissu" of the whole thing. Even though Id read his books I hd no idea that he was this character from a David Lee Burke mystery. A pwerfexct southern gentlemen . They only failed to show him with a mint julep.

Within my (incomplete) knowledge of Civil War history, I am most impressed
with a very, very colorful participant: Lt. General Nathan Bedford Forrest,
who enlisted in the Confederate Army and he outfitted a battalion
of Confederate Mounted Rangers (or was it a regiment?) at his own expense,
(I guess THAT is putting your money where your mouth is)
and was elected its leader. If my memory is accurate,
he was then commissioned in the rank of Lieutenant Colonel.
He had a brilliant tactical mind
and many remarkable adventures.

David

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@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

Well the entire episode ws not exactly one in which reason prevailed..It is a fact that had MAry Surratts son been around (He lammed ) HE would have been hung and his mom would have been spared.

Stanton was going around suspending all sorts of civil rights during the episode. Remember there were several dozen " potential conspirators" who were questioned and some detained until the "Short list " was selected.

Suspicion has fallen on Stanton;
whether he was IN on it.

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Bedford Forrest was, basically, a white trash boy made good, who went to Memphis and becam a successful and wealthy slave dealer. He didn't make it into the homes of the wealthy and genteel until after the war, when his former rank of Major General was his ticket in.

Forrest was indeed a natural at command, and he did very well--but he was not undefeated, and most of his exploits took place behind Federal ines, where he was neither facing the "A team" nor facing significant concentrations of troops. He also terrorized the citizens of western Tennessee because he dragooned men into his units, to the point that when the locals heard Forrest was coming, they hid their food and their sons. He deserves credit for the great skills he developed, and the initiative and audacity he always showed. He has, however, a greater reputation than he deserves, in my never humble opinion.

Are you also aware that he founded the Ku Klux Klan?

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

Bedford Forrest was, basically, a white trash boy made good,

Yeah; kind of another Lincoln (tho he might dislike that comparison).

Setanta wrote:

who went to Memphis and becam a successful and wealthy slave dealer.
He didn't make it into the homes of the wealthy and genteel until after the war,
when his former rank of Major General was his ticket in.

As I recall, he made it up one rank higher than that.
He was a leader of exceptional personal courage and energy.
He was there to FIGHT and he really put his heart into his work,
even after he was shot.

Setanta wrote:

Forrest was indeed a natural at command, and he did very well--but he was not undefeated,

Well, the whole edifice was falling down around him. He was willing to take risks.
He was willing to fight. He personallly killed over 3O Union troops, with his pistols and sword.
History is replete with cautious general officers who did little fighting and were undefeated.

Setanta wrote:

and most of his exploits took place behind Federal ines,

Going behind enemy lines is what Rangers DO.
That takes a special kind of courage and Individualism.

Setanta wrote:

where he was neither facing the "A team" nor facing significant concentrations of troops.
He also terrorized the citizens of western Tennessee because he dragooned men
into his units, to the point that when the locals heard Forrest was coming,
they hid their food and their sons.

He coud not go the Confederate mess hall for lunch.

Setanta wrote:

He deserves credit for the great skills he developed, and the initiative and audacity he always showed.
He has, however, a greater reputation than he deserves, in my never humble opinion.

He was absolutely extraordinary as a soldier
and in many other ways in his life, as I remember.

Setanta wrote:

Are you also aware that he founded the Ku Klux Klan?

Yes; it was a defensive guerrilla force qua the Army of Occupation, like the Free French.
The Yankees were pretty ruff on the locals; did not like them much.
I understand that there have been 3 distinct incarnations of the KKK,
whereof that was the first.

David

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Jesus, not only do you have a fairy tale, warped view of history, but it seems your view of life and the people in it are pretty damed warped, too.

If i forget, and actually address you again, please remind me what a waste of time it is to talk to you.

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@Setanta,

Forrest also disowned the KKK. Forrest was integral in its formation more as a fraternal association for former Confederate Officers modeling itself after the 'secret societies' like the Masons in the bactkwaters of Murfreesboro, Tennessee.

Originally called 'Kurlos' a bastardization of the Greek word for Circle shortly after the end of the war as a fraternal organization it developed into an organization of terror in the 1870's and 80's.

During this time Forrest was rebuilding his financial and political fortunes and decided to cut and run from his association with the Klan.

The KKK suffered to some extent after that, falling into terrorism until the turn of the century when is arose as a significant political force in the states of Indiana and Colorado. A political force powerful enough to claim as a member the Governor of Indiana in the early 20's.

A scandal involving a Klan functionary involving the murder of a young woman on a train outside of Indianapolis fortunately destroyed the overt political ambitions of the KKK as many of its politically powerful and astute members bailed.

During the 30's the much smaller KKK expanded the targets of their hatred to Catholics, Jews and, in the western states, Mexicans and Indians to increase their wackadoo appeal.

I have always thought Forrest was given too much credit in his association with founding of the Klan. I don't think of Forrest as a wackadoo.

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@raprap,

raprap wrote:

I don't think of Forrest as a wackadoo.

nor do I

David

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@raprap,

During the Civil War, obviously the Confederate Army were regular troops, representing the Confederacy,
but when the Confederate Government was annihilated, the returning Veterans who defensively organized
themselves into the KKK became a "well regulated militia" because thay no longer represented any government,
only the citizens themselves (like the Mormon Militia on its way to Utah, or the Free French, or armed Merchants' groups
when the police have fled, during race riots).

Arguably, the rebellious passengers who fought against the Moslems
on 9/11/1 on United Airlines Flight 93 were a "well regulated militia"
in that thay did not represent any government; thay were armed
only with their food cart, used as a ram.

Such is the nature of private militia, that arises during emergency.

(Note that I have never belonged to any private militia.)

David

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

One could make the same claim for the James and the Younger Brothers.

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@raprap,

raprap wrote:

One could make the same claim for the James and the Younger Brothers.

Yes; I 'm reminded of Charles Bronson's character in the Death Wish movies.
When one is grossly abused, he can sit there quietly and do nothing, but that is not necessarily his ONLY option.

Everyone has to decide for himself what he is going to DO.

David

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ALL THINGS CIVIL WAR

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