ALL THINGS CIVIL WAR

By the way, seizing Federal military installations which had not threatened or even challenged any of those states, and firing on an unarmed merchant ship can hardly be described as defensive acts. Requisitioning arms and ammunition from the St. Louis arsenal, with the intent of using them to dispossess without compensation the United States of property previously acknowledged to be United States property is criminally dishontest, in the most charitable construction. You earlier mentioned British troops who did not immediately leave United States territory--that was because the United States had not met its treaty obligations to reimburse subjects of the British crown. The southern confederacy made not a single move to reimburse the Federal government.

I would also point out to you that the constitution prohibits the states from forming confederacies.

1 Reply

@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

No, the provocations were attacks on Federal military installations
when in fact the the state in questions--Florida--had not departed the union;

Thank u for that information.
I did not know that the South had been guilty of that.

Setanta wrote:

and the firing on an unarmed merchant vessel in Charleston harbor. You're attempting to make out that these states had a right to seize property which was not legally theirs just because of proximity. A poor argument, and one i suspect you know would not work in court.

The UN analogy is not, in fact, analogous.

Y not ??

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The United Nations is not and never has been a part of the United States.

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

The United Nations is not and never has been a part of the United States.

The reasoning of my analogy
is that America belongs to the UN and we have the right to leave it,
for any reason or for no reason.
In addition, the UN owns some real estate in Manhattan.

That seems like a fairly decent parallel to me.

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@OmSigDAVID,

No--John Wilkes entered he theatre in the 2nd act through a stage door--no ticket.

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@raprap,

raprap wrote:

No--John Wilkes entered he theatre in the 2nd act through a stage door--no ticket.

I see; then he deserved to get that broken leg.

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@raprap,

Some suspicion had fallen upon Secretary of war Edwin Stanton.
Lincoln's bodyguard was missing that evening.

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

By the way, seizing Federal military installations which had not threatened or even challenged any of those states,
and firing on an unarmed merchant ship can hardly be described as defensive acts.

I acknowledge your point; good point.

Setanta wrote:

Requisitioning arms and ammunition from the St. Louis arsenal, with the intent of using them to dispossess without compensation the United States of property previously acknowledged to be United States property is criminally dishontest, in the most charitable construction. You earlier mentioned British troops who did not immediately leave United States territory--that was because the United States had not met its treaty obligations to reimburse subjects of the British crown.
The southern confederacy made not a single move to reimburse the Federal government.

I would also point out to you that the constitution prohibits the states from forming confederacies.

Yes.
That is fully operative so long as those States remain within the USA.

David

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@OmSigDAVID,

My Grandmother read extensively about Dr Samuel Mudd, the doctor who set John Wilkes broken leg and was convicted of aiding and abetting during the assassination trials. Andrew Johnson paroled Mudd in 1869.

Lydia always felt he was caught up in a bums rush. Fortunately she lived long enough to see Mudd exonerated by Jimmy Carter.

BTW I always have heard that Samuel Mudd is the source of the phrase 'Your name is mud."

Rap

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@raprap,

Quote:

BTW I always have heard that Samuel Mudd is the source of the phrase 'Your name is mud."

Yes, i've read the same thing.

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@raprap,

Dr. Mudd was a victim of a miscarriage of justice
(as if the assassin had planned to break his leg).

The Union troops acted upon the basis of their emotions.
Its a good thing thay did not hang him.

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@George,

In many cases, especially the miltias around and in Boston, they were those middle-aged guys you refer to.

Sam Adams was 48 at the time of the Boston Massacre.
Joe(no spring chicken)Nation

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@Joe Nation,

Yeah; I was thinking that too.

David

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@George,

One of the advantages enjoyed by the New England militias was that so many members were veterans of the French and Indian War, which had taken place almost 20 years earlier. For example, Israel Putnam, who eventually came to command the Connecticut militia, had served in Rogers Rangers in the French and Indian War, was promoted to Captain and then Major, and had taken part in Pontiac's War in 1758. There were many like him with military experience and proven command ability.

1 Reply

@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

It was, in fact, an incredibly puerile move on the part of the southern states. It was the equivalent of saying: "If we don't play by my rules, i'm going to take my toys and go home"--when in fact, everyone was already playing by their rules.

Quite right.

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@Joe Nation,

Joe Nation wrote:

In many cases, especially the miltias around and in Boston, they were those middle-aged guys you refer to.

Sam Adams was 48 at the time of the Boston Massacre.
Joe(no spring chicken)Nation

Thanks, Joe (and belated happy b-day).
Nice to know that the software developement managers by the rude
bridge this weekend had their 18th century counterparts.

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@Setanta,

You mean the Union did not wear Blue helmets! Shocked! Shocked, I am. I guess I've been listening to too much Glenn Beck.

1 Reply

@Setanta,

Thanks, Setanta, and sorry for derailing the Civil War thread by about
four score and some odd years.

1 Reply

@George,

Hey, Boss, i'm no thread Nazi, and i have no problem with digressions . . . one of my favorite of those New England boys was Stark.

John Stark was a New Hampshire milita colonel who was a veteran of the French and Indian War. Prescott, in the redoubt on Breeds Hill, called for reinforcements, but a Royal Navy sloop was shelling Charlestown Neck, and the militia nearby were milling around and unwilling to brave the shell fire to cross the Neck. Stark marched his regiment up, looked at them and the British sloop with contempt, and told them to get out of his way. He marched his men across the Neck with no casualties.

He then went down to the beach of the Mystic River at Prescott's request to protect the flank. He had his men take stones from the beach and from the stone fences on the fields above to build a wall across the beach. The British soon tried to land troops nearby to take the redoubt in flank. Some of Stark's men started to panic, and he is said to have told them: "By God, you'll stay where you are, or Bessie Stark will be a widow tonight." He had his men crouch down behind the little stone wall (Israel Putnam always said Americans fought better if you gave them something to cover their legs), and when the redcoats were within a few yards, they stood and delivered their volley, killing 90 Brits in an instant. They then repulsed two more attacks on their position, until the redcoats gave up the effort.

Elizabeth Stark was not to be a widow for many more years. He survived the war, and he and his wife raised about a dozen children.

1 Reply

@raprap,

I'm sure Glenn would never knowingly lie to you, Boss . . . he must have misunderestimated his soruces of information . . .

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ALL THINGS CIVIL WAR

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