Condemn racism, and bigotry

@vikorr,

It's not JUST semantics. A "race" is incorrectly considered a package of genetic traits that distinguish the entire group as a global entity distinct from other groups, in the way that we correctly talk about the distinction between species (in terms of exclusive capacity for reproduction). As I understand it one can--ideally/hypothetically--take two "typical" members of two so-called races and observe that they may be more similar to each other in some respects than they are to many members of their own so-called races. Also note that we often focus on a few and perhaps relative superficial traits like hair texture and complexion while ignoring qualities that we cannot see such as suseptibility to diseases and countless other physiological traits.

1 Reply

@JLNobody,

JLNobody wrote:

Just because PHYSICAL races do not exist (not to be confused with genetic variations)

vikorr wrote:

That's playing semantics isn't it.

JLNobody wrote:

It's not JUST semantics

I didn't say it was JUST semantics (the JUST makes iit all encompassing) - the explanation that followed should have shown that...what I was referring specifically, was your assertion that implies racial genetic similarities do not exist.

The very capitalised JUST also suggests that you think there is an element of semantics in it?

Quote:

A "race" is incorrectly considered a package of genetic traits that distinguish the entire group as a global entity distinct from other groups

Okay, so you are playing word games with the commonly accepted concept of what defines a race. It would probably be incorrect to consider that visually genetic similarities are ALL that identify a race. Yet it wouldn't be so wrong to say we can recognise certain races by their physical features- again, we all recognise Japanese racial features.

Of course when a person of a particular racial heritage is raised in another country, lines blur as to 'race', and that's where we use the word 'heritage'.

Personally, I'm somewhat reminded of dog breeds when I think of race - genetic similarities in appearance, but all of the same species, and with the added complexity of human cultural influence and environmental influences.

Quote:

As I understand it one can--ideally/hypothetically--take two "typical" members of two so-called races and observe that they may be more similar to each other in some respects than they are to many members of their own so-called races.

I would hope that is the case. We are all human, and it would be silly to think that separate human races did not share huge at least 99% of genetic traits with each other (I wouldn't be surprised if the percentage is much higher, because the genetics probably run into the trillions).

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Also note that we often focus on a few and perhaps relative superficial traits like hair texture and complexion while ignoring qualities that we cannot see such as suseptibility to diseases and countless other physiological traits.

Well yes - is there a problem with identifying race by superficial but common and easily identifiable traits?

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@vikorr,

Quote:

I would hope that is the case. We are all human, and it would be silly to think that separate human races did not share huge at least 99% of genetic traits with each other (I wouldn't be surprised if the percentage is much higher, because the genetics probably run into the trillions).

Yes the percentage is much higher...and still there are races. I can´t see any problem with that...

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Quote:

Condemn racism, and bigotry

U propose to try to impose thought control upon people who do not think as u do.

Suppose that thay do the same thing in return.
Are THAY less convinced that thay are right than u are ??

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@OmSigDAVID,

Really David, that doesn't say that at all. To 'Condemn' something does not equal thought control.

On the flip side, are you saying that you don't say anything to anyone about something you don't agree with?

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@TuringEquivalent,

I have not read any prior replies...just want to note that.

You are right Turing with a very significant caveat:

Everyone doesn't agree on what should be labeled "racist" or " bigotry."

If someone doesn't agree with either you or me on what merits the label, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are conceding to be a "little bit" racist or bigoted.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Racism and bigotry are to be condemned not only because they represent faulty thinking; they must be condemned because they are (in addition to being stupid) socially destructive and cruel.

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@Renaldo Dubois,

Renaldo Dubois wrote:

Some cultures are destructive or backwards. I don't like those kinds of cultures.

We are almost all living in that sort of culture... Population pressures have forced us all to be almost as hateful to ourselves and our own as to other peoples.... What one Native said: That we beat our horses, but not our children the whites could not say... They beat the environment, and the natives, and their horse, and their children, and eventually the whole world.... The fact that the natives beat horses, and other nations was of a set piece, because they looked at each as animals while they looked at their own, all their own -as human beings for whom and whose benefit other lesser beings were beat... What we do we do for a dying individual, and we turn our hatred against all life because we know that as an individual we are but so many pounds of dead meat, and all we have is this moment to turn our spleen and bile against the whole of life... Out culture is the culture of the individual, and it is our gift to the world...

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@Renaldo Dubois,

Renaldo Dubois wrote:

I dislike the Islamic culture. It's not adaptable to American culture in my opinion. Sharia Law is barbaric in my opinion. Nothing to like about that culture.

I am certain you do not understand it, or to what extent Islam was taylored to the people and the people to their harsh environment... A little knowledge can cure a great deal of prejudice...

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@Fido,

Fido wrote:

For example: In this country, black people have a living memory of slavery which is a part of their culture... This slave mentality makes it extremely difficult for anyone to escape both poverty or that culture...

You need intelligence to adapt. If you have a low IQ, you cannot adapt.
http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/sft.htm

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Exploring genetic differences in the new DNA age
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/09/world/americas/09iht-dna.4.8269929.html

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@JLNobody,

Fine and dandy, the terms "racism" and "bigotry" are tossed around with such abandon and partisan intent, that I doubt we all will agree on who needs to be condemned...which makes the condemnation pretty ineffective.

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@Fido,

First of all you are assuming Renaldo is guilty of prejudice.

Secondly, a culture that develops because of geographical and situational influences is uniquely suited to the people who built it, but that doesn't mean that it is suited for any other people and can't be considered noxious to those who did not grow up with the same geographical and situational influences.

A desert culture works for people who live in the desert. I can possibly accept the argument that people who don't live in the desert should not presume to judge the culture of desert dwellers, but there is no reason why they should not be repulsed by it.

Unfortunately, it seems desert and steppes cultures long to export their ways.

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A conceptual prerequisite for the emergence of racism is the belief in the existence of races. One anthropologist I know even considers that purely cognitive understanding to be an expression of racism.

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@JLNobody,

I would not agree that it is an expression of racism to acknowledge that there are different peoples. There are distinct differences, and the controversy on this issue may never let us resolve the issues completely, because we seem to have trouble separating value in terms of worth from the issue of what is actually the case.

If someone researched it, and came up with conclusive evidence that short people with tilted eyes, yellow skin and black hair were on average more intelligent than people with white skin and blond hair... If someone were to prove this as fact, would it be rasicm to acknowledge it?

My answer is no. It would not.

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@Cyracuz,

Cyr, he didn't say

Quote:

that it is an expression of racism to acknowledge that there are different peoples

JL said

Quote:

A conceptual prerequisite for the emergence of racism is the belief in the existence of races

There's a distinct difference Smile

Mind you - the implication is the same as Jon Lennon's 'Imagine', which I think misses the nature of humanity - but that's just me.

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@vikorr,

Yes, vikorr, there is a distinct difference. And as I said, I would not agree with anyone who defines the prerequisite JL speaks of as racism.

I would say that there is a big difference between acepting that someone isn't like you and shooting them for it. Smile

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@Cyracuz,

Cryacuz, of course an individual who believes in the existence of things called races in not the same as a nazi bigot. As Vik noted, I was only saying that to have a racism in the severe sense requires a racism in the minor sense. More to the point, racism, in the severe versison, is the feeling or belief that there are group-based physical differences that make a difference. People are physically different in what I consider to be insignificant ways. Obviously, hair color and texture, eye shape, and complexion are genetically determined appearances, but to argue that they are symptoms of something fundamental called racial entities and that such entities are significantly different--sub-species, as it were--overlook the fact that a blond man raised in a Chinese rural village and an asian looking man raised in Manhattan will perceive the world and behave in it like a blond Chinese man and an asian looking New Yorker. Culture is a significant determinant of behavior while physical appearance is not. Perhaps I'm a cultural bigot.....Nah.

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@Pamela Rosa,

Pamela Rosa wrote:

Fido wrote:
For example: In this country, black people have a living memory of slavery which is a part of their culture... This slave mentality makes it extremely difficult for anyone to escape both poverty or that culture...

You need intelligence to adapt. If you have a low IQ, you cannot adapt.
http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/sft.htm

There is an interplay of life and environment in every person.... Low intelligence may now be the excuse for descrimination when race once was; but racial descrimination gave people stiffling environments, and children raised in such circumstances do not have anything approaching their maximum IQ... Add a few lead paint chips and many a promising life can be ended nearly at the beginning... Intelligence alone is not enough... Culture is knowledge and few are ever in a position to judge their culture... Adaptation for human beings is accomplished with a change of forms, and most people are trapped in their forms, never able to judge them objectively...

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@JLNobody,

Quote:

More to the point, racism, in the severe versison, is the feeling or belief that there are group-based physical differences that make a difference.

I would not consider this racism, even though I share your belief that the differences are insignificant. I think of racism as anything that serves to establish or entrench a hierarchy of worth supported by "facts" about the different races.
But establishing relative worth of things around us is as natural to us as breathing, so perhaps racism is an inevitable result of the belief that the races are different in ways that matter..

I agree that cultur is a much more significant determinant. A friend of mine is a south american native looking englishman.

3 Replies

Condemn racism, and bigotry

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