military action against Libya

@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

I think the key word to protect any soldier is "legal" order. If' it's illegal, they don't have to follow the order.

Yes, that's what I said in my response to Rabel. No one has to follow illegal orders.

@RABEL222,

RABEL222 wrote:

It makes it easier when you "meaning all of us in the U.S" send someone else to fight the wars while the rest of us go about our business not careing that our young are being killed untill its one of the family.

I have often repeated that story told of Socrates, that when asked when there would be justice in Athens, he answered: There will be justice when those not injured by injustice as are indignant as those who are...

We make ourselves human, and social, and worthy of our community when we take up the cause of the injured and make it our own... A lot of people from my generation were destroyed in Vietnam, and only a few of them were killed or wounded in action... The government has learned to keep as many troops in the field for as long as possible expecting the vast majority will be destroyed psychologically forever, but because that number is relatively small in comparison with Vietnam Vets, the hope is that few will notice and less will care...

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@JTT,

JTT wrote:

Quote:
It makes it easier when you "meaning all of us in the U.S" send someone else to fight the wars

You have a legitimate point, Rabel, about who it is that is sending those someone elses, but stop trying to dignify these instances of mass murder as 'wars'.

The US went into Vietnam and concentrated their attacks on the civilian population of the south because those people were dead set against the invading horde that had entered their country with nothing but brutality.

The US did the same thing in Laos and Cambodia without even bothering with the grand pretense that was Vietnam.

So much of the slaughter is just so sanitary that it make me sick to think of it... There are a lot of folks in Maryland sitting in cube farms with joysticks between their fingers ready to deal death from some drone high above the clouds, and at the end of their shifts, they go home to the wives and children and take a shower, and never ever have to smell the death, or hear the screams... If you are going to kill some one, at least if possible, acknowledge the fact that he or she is human, and witness it, and risk your life some fraction to kill them... Killing should not be clean, or sanitary, or without risk, or without cause or responsibility.... Killing should be what it has always been, a great bloody filthy contest between people and causes... Making it too easy makes it criminal... Making it easy means no one ever has to ask what it is about and why...

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@JTT,

JTT wrote:

Nuremberg Principles

Principle IV
Principle IV states: "The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him".

This principle could be paraphrased as follows: "It is not an acceptable excuse to say 'I was just following my superior's orders'".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Principles

Like I say: No person can be made a slave without their consent...

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@JTT,

JTT wrote:

Quote:
I think the key word to protect any soldier is "legal" order. If' it's illegal, they don't have to follow the order.

Yes, that's what I said in my response to Rabel. No one has to follow illegal orders.

Part of the problem is that no private soldier is ever in a possition ot judge what is a legal and illegal order... Prisoners have always been killed, and it is likely that privates did it on their own for the most part... But if an officer says it is necessary, unless a soldier knows otherwise, he is not in a position to judge, and so he has only the choice of dying sooner rather than later, and where death is expected, common, and likely from enemy action, people will always put off death to a point from which they can hope to escape it rather than inviting it into their lives... You know, that back from the battlefield, and the front lines, when people killed civilians and slavs in WWII, they knew they were doing wrong, for the most part, and did so willingly, and used the Hitler Oath as a pretexts for what they really and truly wanted to do... There is no question of their guilt... Their guilt is our guilt... We are all the same, always looking for justification for what we really want to do...

1 Reply

@Fido,

Quote:

Part of the problem is that no private soldier is ever in a possition ot judge what is a legal and illegal order... Prisoners have always been killed, and it is likely that privates did it on their own for the most part... But if an officer says it is necessary, unless a soldier knows otherwise, he is not in a position to judge, and so he has only the choice of dying sooner rather than later,

Absolutely false, Fido. Did you not see and read the "rules of engagement" rulebook that was given to each US soldier in Vietnam? It specifically described for each soldier just what his duties and responsibilities were wrt prisoners.

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@JTT,

When it comes to war, the U.S., and blame you have a bug in your bonnet. You arnt rational where it is concerned so on this subject I will not exchange posts with you. You seem to blame the U.S for any wars and resulting casuilties for the last 200 years and this is bull shyt on your part.

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@JTT,

JTT wrote:

Quote:
Part of the problem is that no private soldier is ever in a possition ot judge what is a legal and illegal order... Prisoners have always been killed, and it is likely that privates did it on their own for the most part... But if an officer says it is necessary, unless a soldier knows otherwise, he is not in a position to judge, and so he has only the choice of dying sooner rather than later,

Absolutely false, Fido. Did you not see and read the "rules of engagement" rulebook that was given to each US soldier in Vietnam? It specifically described for each soldier just what his duties and responsibilities were wrt prisoners.

Ya, ya... Rules are rules are rules are rules, and what people do is what people do doodley do... Love... Fido..

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@RABEL222,

RABEL222 wrote:

When it comes to war, the U.S., and blame you have a bug in your bonnet. You arnt rational where it is concerned so on this subject I will not exchange posts with you. You seem to blame the U.S for any wars and resulting casuilties for the last 200 years and this is bull shyt on your part.

Look at our wars... First we had to go there, and then we had to send a bunch of military junk there to make war work... These wars cannot all be framed as offensive defense... Many of them have simply been offense, wars of choice...

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@RABEL222,

Quote:

When it comes to war, the U.S., and blame you have a bug in your bonnet. You arnt rational where it is concerned so on this subject I will not exchange posts with you.

You keep repeating this lie, Rabel, as if repeating it will make it true. It's not a matter of war, it's a matter of war crimes. There's a big difference, something that eludes pretty much everyone, in the childish sense that they can't come to grips with it.

Did Finn's threats get to you? That was a pretty dumb thing to do on his part but dumb is what Finn does best - no, maybe obfuscate and deceive is what Finn does best. Oh well, Finn does all manner of immoral thing exceedingly well.

Quote:

You seem to blame the U.S for any wars and resulting casuilties for the last 200 years

You have to make the distinction between wars, which are the legitimate use of state power and war crimes, which are those things that the Nazis and the Japanese were convicted for.

Other than WWI & WWII, which were legitimate uses of state power, the US has committed numerous wars of aggression, which are war crimes. Everything that flows from an illegal war of aggression is also a war crime.

You Americans, who frequently brag about how open and honest and forthright you are, are falling off like flies in the first killing frost. What's with that?

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@JTT,

War is a war crime... War is crime... You think that what a normal person in a normal time would not do becuase it is too full of risk, bloody, and violent and wrong is some how made good and fine by a declaration of war??? get outta dodge... The behavior is a failure, not just of communication, but of relationship...

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@JTT,

JTT, You keep harping on the US about wars and criminal behavior. Yes, the US has committed crimes against humanity, but what country or culture hasn't? Are you so perfect that you have never in your life made any mistake?

I'm just as critical about the US, and how our government has gotten our country into illegal wars. It's our political government that made the decision. The military must follow the order given by our civil government whether it was justified or not - ethically or morally.

Quit harping on the US in 99% of your posts. You are an extremist who doesn't understand how almost all nations have gotten themselves involved in illegal wars. That's a fact.

You become ****'n tiresome and a bore.
And, you're not a perfect human no matter what you may claim - morally or ethically.

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@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

JTT, You keep harping on the US about wars and criminal behavior. Yes, the US has committed crimes against humanity, but what country or culture hasn't?

That's hardly the test, CI. You've tried this before without much luck.

Quote:

Are you so perfect that you have never in your life made any mistake?

I've never committed mass murder or war crimes nor have I tried to make apologies for those that have. That's what virtually every person here does, when they know exactly what they're doing.

Notice how many folks have ever tried to dispute the facts, something that you said you'd like to see done. Why do you figure that is?

Quote:

The military must follow the order given by our civil government whether it was justified or not - ethically or morally.

As I've shown, that's not the case. No one is required to follow orders that are illegal and immoral.

Never claimed to be a perfect human. Serious red herring, CI.

1 Reply

@JTT,

No, it isn't, but you are an extremist and a ****'n bore. Go someplace else and play with yourself; for cry'n out loud.

You proved your case and thousand times over, and it's all repetition. WE DON'T NEED TO HEAR ANY MORE FROM YOU ON THIS SUBJECT!

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

An "extremist"? I thought you said I was a perfect human.

Was Simon Wiesenthal an extremist because he relentlessly sought to bring war criminals to justice?

The US really loves to get in on that action as much as they can, making great pretense that they are moral and just when you know that's all just a monstrous lie.

The repetition that is really tough to take is the false preening that goes on in these various threads from those who say nothing about US war crimes, but drone on and on about how great it is that the very countries the US has kept in abject poverty and slavery are now flowering into democracy.

Jesus, CI, look around you at all the hypocrites. Did Finn scare you into compliance? If you don't like it, do what the other cowards do, put me on ignore.

1 Reply

@JTT,

Show me where I said "you were a perfect human?" You can cut and paste from any of my posts.

You talk about morals as if you are a perfect human being; you ain't.

We already know that a) many Americans don't see the atrocities committed by the US, and b) you are so perfect that you have all the rights to criticize Americans on 99% of your posts.

I do look around me, but also understand a little about human history. You should try that some time. Look at the crimes of your own country; if that's possible.

As you say, one crime doesn't give license to other crimes.

Your claim that there are hypocrites all around us doesn't prove anything about you not being one. There are more ways than one to tag somebody as a hypocrite. I sincerely believe you belong in that group.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

JTT, You keep harping on the US about wars and criminal behavior. Yes, the US has committed crimes against humanity, but what country or culture hasn't? Are you so perfect that you have never in your life made any mistake?

I'm just as critical about the US, and how our government has gotten our country into illegal wars. It's our political government that made the decision. The military must follow the order given by our civil government whether it was justified or not - ethically or morally.

Quit harping on the US in 99% of your posts. You are an extremist who doesn't understand how almost all nations have gotten themselves involved in illegal wars. That's a fact.

You become ****'n tiresome and a bore.
And, you're not a perfect human no matter what you may claim - morally or ethically.

Tu quo que is not a defense, but an accusation... If we are guilty, then go and sin no more...

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@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

We already know that a) many Americans don't see the atrocities committed by the US,

Precisely, CI. You've hit the nail on the head.

I think that I've discovered why.

See,

The Invisible Gorilla,

http://able2know.org/topic/171741-1

1 Reply

@JTT,

JTT wrote:

Quote:
We already know that a) many Americans don't see the atrocities committed by the US,

Precisely, CI. You've hit the nail on the head.

I think that I've discovered why.

See,

The Invisible Gorilla,

http://able2know.org/topic/171741-1

We are aloof, until some one brings it home to us we have no reason to consider the problems we force upon the world... Even when we do not do it ourselves, war is one of our largest exports... We will feed them while they have some money, and when the money gets short we will sell them guns to fix their population problems... We have a solution to problems that have not even been invented yet... All we need is R and D, and an open mind...

1 Reply

@Fido,

Quote:

We are aloof, until some one brings it home to us we have no reason to consider the problems we force upon the world.

Everyone has an invisible gorilla at some time for certain circumstances. It's starting to make much more sense now.

I really was starting to believe that there were two universes going on here. Smile

"How is it possible that spending more time with the world in view actually reduces our ability to see what is right in front of us?"

["I think I would have seen that", chapter 1, p21, The Invisible Gorilla'

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military action against Libya

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