35
   

military action against Libya

 
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Mar, 2011 09:35 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
I don't see the merits of their argument. The only way we could get the Saudis to leave would be to send our own troops in on the ground and go to war with Saudi Arabia -- and we'd be doing it without any approval from either the Arab League or the UN Security Council.


They clearly are not a case for a Libya-style intervention, but we aren't even making Egypt-style condemnations or Egypt-style pressure. Our criticism of them is incredibly muted in comparison.
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Tue 22 Mar, 2011 09:40 am
@Irishk,
Quote:
Do most of our fighter jets carry two pilots?


Cutbacks hit everyone Laughing

Cycloptichorn
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Mar, 2011 09:45 am
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:

They clearly are not a case for a Libya-style intervention, but we aren't even making Egypt-style condemnations or Egypt-style pressure. Our criticism of them is incredibly muted in comparison.


There is no real comparison between a mildly authoritarian Arab regime beset with some internal religious factions, such as Bahrain, and that of the daffy Ghadaffi. The former is the rule in the Muslim world while the latter has been an annoyance and a threat to its citizens and the world for forty years. Ghadaffi has directed repeated terrorist acts against Americans; actively supported other terrorist organizations; engaged in repeated assasinations of his opponents in Libya and overseas; engaged in a systematic effort to develop and export nuclear and chemical weapons; and a host of outrages against neighboring African nations.

If you are going to indulge in this silly pseudo contradiction, please acknowledge that by the standard you are applying, we and the "International community" should also be going after Syria, Jordan, Kuwait, the UAE, Dubai, Algeria and Oman.
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Mar, 2011 09:57 am
@Cycloptichorn,
There are several variants of the F-15...F-15 Eagle, F-15 Strike Eagle. I think they all have 2-man crews...Wiki puts the cost at around $30M each, depending on the version. Glad both pilots are safe.
0 Replies
 
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Mar, 2011 10:49 am
Confusion and bickering in the international community...

From WaPo with more at the link...

Quote:
The confusion over the mission, meanwhile, has spread beyond Libya. On Monday, NATO members bickered over whether what began as a relatively straightforward effort aimed at preventing Gaddafi from launching airstrikes against his people had turned into a more punitive action directed at his military forces, according to a European diplomat.

The disputes appear to have delayed U.S. efforts to turn the command of the operation over to NATO in the next few days. As of Monday evening, it remained unclear when responsibility would shift and who would assume it.

France, which has sought to portray itself as being in the vanguard of the operation, has raised concerns that Arab states will not participate in the operation if it is led by NATO. Turkey, which abstained from voting on the U.N. resolution, has said it sees no role for NATO.

Senior U.S. officials have made clear that Gaddafi needs to vacate his position even as they have said that driving him from power and degrading his military forces were not the international coalition’s goals.


Kucinich may have been right when he said, "This will be a nightmare".

cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Tue 22 Mar, 2011 10:52 am
@Irishk,
The nightmare already started; Obama has not provided enough information on our involvement, even though he said "days and not weeks." That doesn't mean much when we don't know what the parameters are - which he has never provided.
Irishk
 
  2  
Reply Tue 22 Mar, 2011 01:06 pm
@cicerone imposter,
It just gets more FUBAR by the minute. Now there's an investigation into the rescue of the downed pilot because it's alleged U.S. helicopter rescuers shot Libyans during the rescue mission. The Guardian reports that the U.S. has denied this 100%.

And the Libyan Deputy Foreign Minister wants a cease-fire from both sides because the coalition forces are using excessive force and are going beyond the mission which is supposed to be solely humanitarian.

It's a mess.
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Mar, 2011 01:11 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
There is no real comparison between a mildly authoritarian Arab regime beset with some internal religious factions, such as Bahrain, and that of the daffy Ghadaffi.


That's why I rejected that comparison and used Egypt. You clearly misunderstand what I wrote (which started out making this very point in fewer words).

Quote:
If you are going to indulge in this silly pseudo contradiction, please acknowledge that by the standard you are applying, we and the "International community" should also be going after Syria, Jordan, Kuwait, the UAE, Dubai, Algeria and Oman.


Why don't you re-read what I said, because I did no such thing.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Mar, 2011 01:16 pm
@Irishk,
Are you at all surprised that Ghadaffi's Deputy Foreign Minister would use any pretext he can find to demand that the nations acting on the UN "mandate" desist from their operations? Papers like the Guardian merely find fault; indulge in hyperbole; and otherwise make the news they sell.

It is standard military doctrine for rescue forces to take out anyone appearing to threaten a downed pilot. Neither of us knows the details of what did or didn't happen, but the potential here for gross distortion of the facts is certainly great.

These are really just piss ant distractions.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Mar, 2011 01:16 pm
@Irishk,
Irishk wrote:

Now there's an investigation into the rescue of the downed pilot because it's alleged U.S. helicopter rescuers shot Libyans during the rescue mission. The Guardian reports that the U.S. has denied this 100%.


There are already photos in the papers (Evening News [London, UK], West End Final B, frontpage and page 4).

"A helicopter strafed the ground nearby to keep locals away."

http://i54.tinypic.com/35i3ip4.jpg

http://i56.tinypic.com/14sco3o.jpg
0 Replies
 
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Mar, 2011 01:21 pm
18.22 The Libyan deputy foreign minister has been speaking to Reuters. No quotes are available yet but according to the agency, he:

:: Claimed it is "clear" the western coalition is trying to assassinate Colonel Gaddafi
:: Said western forces are more interested in helping rebels than protecting civilians
:: Called for a ceasefire between all sides
:: Said the Libyan government wants tribes to help start a dialogue with the rebels

18.15 Turkey has agreed to look after American interests in Libya after the US closed its embassy there last month, the State Department has said.

18.06 Sky News defence correspondent Niall Paterson tweets:
"F15 rescue mission now under investigation by Pentagon following reports that shots were fired on and injured civilians. "

17.59 The AFP news agency is reporting that rebels claim to have pushed Gaddafi's forces back from the outskirts of Zintan, putting an end to the shelling of the town that has been taking place since Saturday. A resident told the agency:

The situation reversed overnight...Gaddafi forces were bombing the town from a position 10 kilometres out of Zintan, but were forced to retreat under rebel fire.

This morning Gaddafi forces retreated towards Gueriane, north of Zintan...On the abandoned position there were burnt-out tanks and gutted trucks.

Zintan is euphoric. The rebels are proud they pushed back Gaddafi forces without anyone's help. There were no coalition strikes in this area.

He added that there were "quite a number of bodies" at the morgue in Zintan, all of them "rebels fallen in the recent clashes".

17.49 The Guardian is reporting that the US military has issued a "100 per cent" denial that Libyan citizens were shot during a rescue mission for the stricken US pilots.

Reporter Tom Kington quotes Richard Ulsh, a spokesman for the US Marines, as saying: "It didn't happen, I can deny this 100 per cent."

17.38 ...and Vladimir Putin, the Russian prime minister, has said those responsible for civilian casualties in Libya should pray to save their own souls, Reuters is reporting.

17.35 Russian president Dmitry Medvedev has told US Defence Secretary Robert Gates he is concerned about the "indiscriminate" use of force by foreign powers in Libya, the Kremlin has reported.
glitterbag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Mar, 2011 01:22 pm
@engineer,
How many people actually believe that the president decides the name assigned to military operations? Can I have a show of hands please.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Mar, 2011 01:25 pm
@Irishk,
Irishk wrote:
American War Plane Crashes in Libya

Quote:
An American F-15E fighter jet crashed in Libya overnight and one crew member has been recovered while the other is “in the process of recovery,” according to a spokesman for the American military’s Africa Command and a British reporter who saw the wreckage.

The crash was likely caused by mechanical failure and not hostile fire, the spokesman, Vince Crawley, told Reuters. Details of the incident remained sparse. The crash was the first known setback for the international coalition attacking Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi’s forces in three days of strikes authorized by the United Nations Security Council…

United States military commanders repeated throughout the day that they were not communicating with Libyan rebels, even as a spokesman for the rebel military, Khaled El-Sayeh, asserted that rebel officers had been providing the allies with coordinates for their airstrikes. “We give them the coordinates, and we give them the location that needs to be bombed,” Mr. Sayeh told reporters.


Do most of our fighter jets carry two pilots?


There are a lot of single-seat fighters too. If it is set up for air-to-air fighting it is more likely to be a single-seater. And if it is set up for air-to-ground fighting it is more likely to be a two-seater. But it isn't a hard and fast rule. I can think of a very notable exception in both directions.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Mar, 2011 01:26 pm
@Irishk,
That's very funny! Gaddafi already said he will kill all of the anti-Gaddafi forces, and that this will be a long war.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Mar, 2011 01:27 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
The nightmare already started; Obama has not provided enough information on our involvement, even though he said "days and not weeks." That doesn't mean much when we don't know what the parameters are - which he has never provided.


Well, if we want an easy excuse to not get more involved, we could just say that any further escalation exceeds the current UN mandate and therefore would require new approval from the Security Council.
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Mar, 2011 01:32 pm
@Irishk,
Irishk wrote:
It just gets more FUBAR by the minute. Now there's an investigation into the rescue of the downed pilot because it's alleged U.S. helicopter rescuers shot Libyans during the rescue mission. The Guardian reports that the U.S. has denied this 100%.


An investigation by whom?

If anti-war protesters hold a mock investigation, that mock investigation will have zero meaning.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Mar, 2011 01:32 pm
@oralloy,
He needs to voice that to the public and our government.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Mar, 2011 01:50 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Hopefully he was also asked about journalist accounts that have a large part of the column being attacked while retreating....


So???
Even if they were retreating, they were still capable of going on the offensive and attacking.
Its sound military tactics to continue to attack a retreating enemy.
You want to destroy their capabiity to fight, AND their will to fight.
To accomplish that, you continue to harry them, you continue your attacks, until they are completely and utterly destroyed as a fighting force.
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Mar, 2011 02:08 pm
@Irishk,
Its standard military procedure to rescue downed pilots, if possible.

When they are forced to eject over hostile territory, the SOP calls for sending in a rescue helicopter, and supporting aircraft.
In that situation, the crew of that rescue helo doesnt have the time to find out who is approaching the downed pilot, and it is assumed that and ground forces approaching that pilot are hostile.
That assunption is made because most time the enemy does want to capture prisoners.

In this case, it was the US Marines that went in and rescued the downed pilot.
The marines are very good at that job, and they go in armed and ready to se whatever force is required to accomplish their mission.

Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Mar, 2011 02:28 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

In this case, it was the US Marines that went in and rescued the downed pilot.


With an Ospreys from USS Kearsarge.
 

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