military action against Libya

[The US has been crystal clear about both the fact that we want the regime to go, but that the resolution does not grant the mandate to do so militarily:

Quote:

"Now, I also have stated that it is U.S. policy that Gadhafi needs to go."
But Obama said he's still hopeful that other "tools" the administration has used, such as freezing billions in Libyan assets, will eventually help the Libyan people push Gadhafi out.

Obama's comments show the delicate balancing act facing the administration as he tries to adhere to the tight U.N. mandate while knowing the mission is unlikely to be seen as a true success around the world unless Gadhafi goes.
"There are a whole range of policies that we are putting in place that have created one of the most powerful international consensuses around the isolation of Mr. Gadhafi and we will continue to pursue those," Obama said. "But when it comes to the military action, we are doing so in support of U.N. Resolution 1973 that specifically talks about humanitarian efforts, and we are going to make sure we stick to that mandate."

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/03/21/obama.gadhafi/

Also my opinion (nothing that can be proved, only debated at this point) is that we will take actions that help the rebels without helping civilians and that we will use "helping civilians" as a fig leaf to disguise our real objectives.

Attacking Gadaffi's compound does not help civilians directly, but taking out Gaddafi sure does support the rebel war effort.

My point with the analogy is only that France wanted to stick it to England and they were upfront about it. They didn't say "oh we must protect the innocents of America", they just said here's an opportunity to screw the British, let's do it.

I'm just saying if that's what the UN wants to do, then say it: we hate Gaddafi and he's a blight on the world so we're supporting the rebels.

True. Our actions will speak for themselves eventually. I'm expressing my opinion of where the chips will land.

NPR is reporting that protesters in Bahrain are angry with the United States because of the death and destruction in their country last week (seven dead, hundreds wounded).

I don't think they're justified to blame the United States, but their anger and frustration are justified. Why does the UN care about Libyans,
but not Bahrainis?

Please explain in practical military terms what might be the difference between an operation designed to remove Ghadaffi's ability or inclination to fight back against the rebels who appear determined to remove him, and one designed to remove him from power.

Neither option involves the necessity of staying around for nation building. That such a distinction figures so prominently in the actions of the participation is itself a demonstration of their lack of resolve and unreliability.

Arguing that the participation of other nations isn't required militarily, but rather that they are required for political cover is fatuous. As long as our military, our committment and the lives of our soldiers are an indispensable requirement the solution then what conceivable benefit are we getting for surrendering our sovereignty to the international community?

I am simply arguing that we cannot safely rely on the international community and that history very strongly suggests that condition isn't about to change anyutime soon.

Further, the notion that pretending that this illusion is real is going to make it real is quite absurd.

Allies Attack Targets in Tripoli as Europeans Feud Over Leadership
By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK AND KAREEM FAHIM
Published: March 21, 2011

TRIPOLI, Libya — Explosions and anti-aircraft fire could be heard in and around Tripoli Monday in a third straight night of attacks there against Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi’s forces, while European nations feuded over who should take command of the no-fly zone. On the ground in Libya, pro-Qaddafi forces were holding out against the allied campaign and an amateurish rebel counterattack.


Tracer bullets fired from anti-aircraft guns left light trails in the sky above the Libyan capital on Monday night.

Pentagon officials said there were fewer American and coalition airstrikes in Libya Sunday night and Monday, and that the number was likely to decline further in coming days. But Gen. Carter F. Ham, the head of United States Africa Command, who is in charge of the coalition effort, said there would be coalition airstrikes on Colonel Qaddafi’s mobile air defenses and that some 80 sorties — only half of them by the United States — had been flown on Monday.

I don't think they're justified to blame the United States, but their anger and frustration are justified. Why does the UN care about Libyans,
but not Bahrainis?

Setanta wrote:

I don't think they're justified to blame the United States, but their anger and frustration are justified. Why does the UN care about Libyans,
but not Bahrainis?

Because the US values the 5th fleet base in Bahrain more than their freedom and doesn't want regime change there, goes the argument. They argue, with some degree of merit, that we are putting our own strategic interests in maintaining that base above their aspirations for freedom.

An American F-15E fighter jet crashed in Libya overnight and one crew member has been recovered while the other is “in the process of recovery,” according to a spokesman for the American military’s Africa Command and a British reporter who saw the wreckage.

The crash was likely caused by mechanical failure and not hostile fire, the spokesman, Vince Crawley, told Reuters. Details of the incident remained sparse. The crash was the first known setback for the international coalition attacking Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi’s forces in three days of strikes authorized by the United Nations Security Council…

United States military commanders repeated throughout the day that they were not communicating with Libyan rebels, even as a spokesman for the rebel military, Khaled El-Sayeh, asserted that rebel officers had been providing the allies with coordinates for their airstrikes. “We give them the coordinates, and we give them the location that needs to be bombed,” Mr. Sayeh told reporters.