A woman kicked my dog.

Wed 16 Mar, 2011 08:12 pm
chai2 wrote:

BTW, a 22 pound dog, for instance is a beagle.

Alex's cat weighs 20-22 lbs and won't even chase a mouse.

chai2 wrote:

22 pounds of teeth coming at you is no joke.

in an animal OR human - just imagine!

chai2 wrote:

I'll tell you what, those 2 or 3 pound chihuahuas know no fear either, and will come at you like a bat out of hell.

I'll never forget this one time, I was going for a walk and this chihuahua was just walking down the middle of the street.
This guy came up and tooted it's horn, so the dog would get out of the way.

This little dog turned around and was like "**** YOU". He stood there, refusing to move one more step. He wasn't scared, he barked at that car like he was saying "I'll show you, now I ain't movin!"

yeah, those damn ankle-biters
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Thu 17 Mar, 2011 12:28 am
Ragman wrote:

Not that rare a circumstance and so very unfortunate. I'm glad you and your cat were OK and you took control of this out-of-control mess. Sometimes so many pet owners panic and fail to act in time or at all.

That is the tragic part. If dogs have to be licensed, so should owners be given at least 10-20 hrs of training as to how to control their dog and establish who and what is alpha, how to make sure your dog knows. However, some dogs as well as some people cannot get these essential concepts. when you watch The Dog Whisperer you'll notice what he uses for effective techniques.

What ever could that woman have been thinking to bring her dog that close to a potential powder keg?! Clearly, if she was that curious, she should have come back without her damned dog.

This is kind of off topic, but the thing that really got me about the whole incident was that I was standing there with my bare hands in her dog's mouth, bleeding badly (it managed to get a very small artery so the blood was out of all proportion to the actual wound, but it was my cat's blood spraying out on the ground for all I knew) and she was too goddam wussy to help me!!! I mean, I had the damn sharp bit, all she had to do was use the leash and her body and voice as the damn dog's alleged master to help me with the rescue...I wasn't asking her to risk being bitten herself!

The dog was just doing what they do, she should have been in control and done something when the situation turned nasty. I mean, I'd have taken the cats indoors immediately if I had seen a LOOSE blue heeler...I love them, but they are obsessed with chasing things and are frequent biters and cat killers.

The goddam CATS were on leash and I had total control of THEM.
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Thu 17 Mar, 2011 12:39 am
Setanta wrote:

Well, i don't think you did anything wrong in kicking the dogs in the examples you have provided. I could not have provided an example in which i would have kicked a dog. Once, while visiting a friend who has two blue heelers, another friend came by with a dog known to us all, including the heelers. But the heeler bitch decided to attack. The heeler dog (her son) also attacked, and i grabbed him, threw him to the ground and held him down. He didn't try to bite me. I understand that your situation was different.

Yes...I can actually manage big dogs generally by just looking very dominant....but when they are, in effect, hunting, they are pretty distracted.

I once saw one of my cats appear over our back fence at the speed of light, closely followed by a Dobermann! The cat was so panicked he ran past the huge tree I was standing next to and hence the Dobermann was about to get him.

I kind of threw myself into the path of the Dobermann, and we both ended up sort of sitting down facing each other.

I figured it behoved me to look very dominant as fast as I could, because I didn't like the look on the Dobermann's face at all, but I had certainly managed to get its attention away from the cat!

I got up first and looked fierce and yelled at the dog to get out.

I wasn't too sure how it was all going to turn out, but I had a hose in my hand and made the jet as fierce as I could and squirted its face.

The Dobermann decided to leave. Rather slowly, I thought. With nasty backward glances.

However, it continued to roam the neighbourhood unchecked, and I didn't like the way it would stop and eye me whenever I saw it, so I called the Council.

Dem's big dogs. I know they are often big softies, but this one looked as though it was plotting some sort of revenge.
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Bella Dea
Thu 17 Mar, 2011 07:28 am
I have known two occasions where people I know had their little dogs killed by bigger dogs whose owners later said that they had thought their big dogs were safe off leash and were just being playful.

This is exactly my point. Little dogs and big dogs can't always play together. The bigger dog may or may not intend on hurting the little dog. But it's like an adult wrestling with a baby.
Thu 17 Mar, 2011 07:55 am
@Bella Dea,
And, also, little dogs can (and often do) have 'little-dog-syndrome'. Sort of a Napoleanic complex. However, all that is a little facile and a bit anthropomorphic. They just are being dogs - a bit closer to the predators than we want to think they are.

Little dog syndrome:
They act bossy and overly-assertive and a nuisance. The big dog then can either laugh off this challenge being made (typically ignoring it) or want to engage to settle the score or even wanting to rough-house and 'sport'.

Little dog then gets overwhelmed as it bites off more than it can chew. Sometimes the dog's 'alpha' juices for competition get the better of them. I've seen dogs just get wound up and then go into 'predator' mode. Sinking in teeth. If you think of the size of the big dog by his mouth/jaw/bite-strength, the little dog loses this battle quickly and sometimes fatally.
Thu 17 Mar, 2011 09:35 am
Chihuahuas don't think they're Napoleon.

They think they're God.
Thu 17 Mar, 2011 03:44 pm
ahahaha! so true.

Then there's those breeders that cross with them with Poodles. What would they call them? Poo-hua-hua. Chi-a-poo? Chai-pet?

That's all us dog-lovers need is a Chi-hua-hua with lots of brains and that 'tude!
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Thu 17 Mar, 2011 05:11 pm
Wow, strong feelings here on both sides of the fence. Don't have a dog, so don't have this issue, but kids sometimes act the same way and if someone ever kicked my kid, that'd be it. Game over for you, buddy. Just wrong, wrong behaviour. Unless it really is self-defense. Have to add that proviso. I can envision a dog with bared teeth and in an angry, offensive mood - yeah, I'd do more than kick it. Likewise with a deadbeat, drugged-out youth with a knife... even if it's my own kid.

But this doesn't seem to be the case here. Or maybe I read it all wrong (but I don't think so).
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Wed 30 Mar, 2011 04:19 pm
I don't buy the theory that there's a hierarchy to bunch of dogs that don't know each other. I don't trust that a pack of dogs will work it out easily.
As a dog owner, It's my responsibility to protect my dog, from other people or dogs, and to make sure that my dog does nothing to any other dogs or people.
Playing can erupt into fighting at any time with a bunch of "unknowns". Cesar's pack knows each other. A pack at a dog park can have any number of unknowns.
I don't believe that a Great Dane and 2 coon pups can be well controlled off the leash. Yeah, I could be wrong. But in my mind the margin for things to go haywire just increased. A pack of unknown dogs, unknown owners and yourself with 3 dogs, 2 of which are pups, none of which are leashed.

(And it was the Great Dane mix that was kicked, the 100#er, not the 22# coon pup.)

Did you confront the woman when she kicked your dog? Why not? If someone kicked my dog without provocation, I'd be all up in their face.

Yes, I would kick a dog if I thought it was out of control, endangering my dog or another animal or person. Yes, I have stepped on the throat of a Chow with a cat in it's mouth. I have dealt with out of control animals, and owners who think they know their dogs.

Wed 30 Mar, 2011 04:38 pm
Not closely following the thread, but delighted to see caribou back.
Wed 30 Mar, 2011 04:44 pm
Thanks, Roger!
Don't know for how long, but it's good to come back once in awhile.
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Wed 30 Mar, 2011 07:02 pm
Have you ever taken your dog/s to an off leash park? I was there every day this week. I talked to many dog owners this week and asked them similar questions. One lady told me that she has been going to this park for several years and has only ever seen one dog fight. That is when the owners got in to fistycuffs and the dogs followed suit. So, in retrospect, I'm kinda glad I didn't get "up all in her face".
I absolutely agree that it is the dog owner obligation to protect their own dogs and to make sure that their dogs don't hurt/attack other people or dogs. Part of the reason people bring dogs to the off leash park is to socialize them. The park is full of unknown dogs and yet... I've never seen a fight. These aren't wild animals, they are tame. If you can't trust your dog, you have no business bringing them to the park.
I've seen Cesar bring or recommend dogs be brought to the off leash dog park for just that purpose. He brings plenty of "unknowns" into his pack because he trusts his dogs and knows they can be trusted. If he didn't, he wouldn't have a show. His pack is full of bully breeds and/or so called dangerous dogs and yet... he still trusts them because they've been trained. Or am I missing something? That is the premise of his show, is it not?
These parks aren't filled with marauding uncontrolled hungry, angry beasts. My dogs have never bitten or attacked anything. As I stated, I called them and they followed me, does that sound like they are not under my control? I'm the pack leader and they know that. This woman was the unknown and as I've said, she has a history of causing problems as I subsequently found out. No I didn't confront her. I chose to walk away. But I have warned other people of her behavior.
If my dog had another dog or cat in his mouth I would have kicked it too, if that is what was necessary.
My friend used to have a chow. They are without a doubt a dangerous dog. His dog bit my sisters rabbit in half. I would never, ever have that breed. Everyone was scared of that dog, for good reason. My friend never took that dog to a park, it wasn't socialized, maybe it couldn't be. Hell, it was never off a leash. It was put down because it was a hellion.
You don't have to buy anything or agree with me, but in the wild, dogs and wolves do have a hierarchy. They run in packs and don't attack each other unless a dog, or wolf doesn't follow the rules. A lone wolf is a dangerous wolf. And while we've all heard horror stories of dogs attacking or killing a child or adult, in most cases the owners were not around to correct the action or they were wild in the first place.
I can't convince you or anyone who hasn't met my dogs that they are not dangerous. I could ask others for a testimonial but that would be overkill. You'll either have to take my word or not.
Wed 30 Mar, 2011 07:31 pm
You have never owned a dog until Murphy. So 10 months.

Cesar introduces one unknown dog to his pack. Not one dog to a pack of unknowns.

Getting in someone's face, doesn't have to be "fisticuffs". But not saying anything to what you see as an unprovoked attack? Someone kicks your dog and you walk away? Yeah, I don't understand that.

I'm so glad that there has only ever been one fight. I understand socializing dogs, and humans. What I'm saying is that you have no control over other owners, people or their dogs. Dog parks are all well and good if everyone is a good dog owner with good dogs. I hope you never do have to deal with a dog fight. Or deal with a bad owner (wait, that's what this is about, isn't it.)
All I'm saying is that there will always be a risk when dealing with that many unknowns.

Tame - wild. I can't even go there.

And I'm not talking about dangerous breeds. I shouldn't have mentioned the breed whose neck I stood on, because I do not believe in blaming the breed. They are dogs. People forget they are dogs first and last. Any dog can be dangerous. Any owner can be dangerous.

Many dogs don't know the rules because they have bad owners. Do you think only good owners go to dog parks?

I wish you luck. You seem to know a lot about dogs after 10 months.

Wed 30 Mar, 2011 09:09 pm
Sarcastic much? So you're saying because I've only owned my dog for 10 months I couldn't possibly know or have learned much in that time? I didn't confront her as I thought it best to walk away than escalate the situation.I didn't see a need for any of the histrionics, as it had never happened before or since I wasn't sure what I should have done, thus the question. Next time, if there is a next time, I'll kick the ****** and hard. I don't give a **** if they are old or not.
However, since I've asked the question, I've been told others would have kicked my dogs and that I'm not knowledgeable enough to know that I'm a so called bad dog owner. Am I getting this right?
Wed 30 Mar, 2011 09:24 pm
We took our dogs to the neighborhood dog park a few days ago. Before that day, I had driven up to the park a couple of times and sat with the dogs in the car while they went wild barking at all the other dogs they could see from the car. I didn't want to let them out yet, just let them get used to the idea that there would be other dogs around.

Then, a couple days ago, I took BBB with me and we were going to just do the same thing. But, there was a good group of people there with a mixture of small dogs and big dogs (it is a no leash park that has a fenced off small dog area). We took our dogs out of the car on their leashes and let them sniff at other dogs through the fence as dogs inside the park came up to check out the new arrivals.

We told the owners that this was the first introduction to other dogs for our two and asked for tips on easing them into it. They all decided to put their own dogs on leashes so we could bring ours inside the park. As they got used to each other, several owners let the smaller dogs off their leashes and all the dogs had a butt sniffing party to greet each other. One of the big dog owners let her dog off the leash and threw a frisbee for him to chase. Dolly wanted to immediately run after him and chase it too, while Maddy just cowered behind me, not feeling very sure about things.

We walked them a bit in the park with a group of small dogs but Maddy was still stressed out over it so we decided he'd had enough and left.

I think they will both be more relaxed the next time. I'm going to try taking them to the fenced off small dog area and see how they do there by themselves.

There is no way we would have taken them inside the park if the owners of the other dogs hadn't volunteered to put theirs on leashes until ours relaxed a bit. They were considerate of other owners and dogs and things were able to progress a lot faster than expected. It helped make it a fun adventure for our dogs rather than something for them to be afraid of.
Wed 30 Mar, 2011 09:30 pm
That's awesome. I'm glad you, BBB and the dogs had a good time. I hope you are able to more often.
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Wed 30 Mar, 2011 10:13 pm
Look, you asked the initial question. I'm giving you my opinion.

Yeah, I am sarcastic. But you have only owned a dog for less than 10 months. There is a lot you don't know. What I was trying to say to you is there is a lot you will never know. And that is not an insult. They are dogs, you are not a dog. Plus, the fact that you can not control other dogs or other owners. I've owned dogs my entire life. I am not an expert. I will never own a dog and say that I know everything that the dog will do or won't do in any given circumstance.

You hear insult. All I'm trying to say is that by going to dog parks you are taking a chance with your dogs. I'm not talking about you being a bad owner. I am saying that you can't control the other people and dogs at the park. There's a risk that you seem to not be at least willing to acknowledge. I'm speaking of other people that are bad dog owners.

Try not to take any of these comments to extremes either. I am not saying that all dog parks are evil. With my other comments you have the tendency to take everything to the extreme of what I am saying.

What would I have done? Well, I would have been cautious about the environment that I was placing my dogs in. I would not trust dogs to work out all their problems themselves. Dogs are no more tame then humans are civilized. If, for some reason, someone kicked my dog for what I believed was no reason, I would say something to them. Not get physical with them, not walk away.

I do think you are delusional about your ability to control 3 dogs, all under the age of a year, all growing to be large dogs, without any prior experience. Add to that, off the leash among unknown people and dogs and, yes, I think you are asking for trouble.
I wish you luck.

Thu 31 Mar, 2011 10:02 am
Just quickly scanned the last page or so, but I really have no opinion on this matter anymore beyond....Ceili, why don't you TALK to the person involved in this?

You've talked to us, you've talked and listened to any number of people at the dog park with no problem, you've warned others about this woman with no problem.

To be blunt, what the hell is your problem with approaching the actual person/people involved?

Don't tell us about it, tell her. Walk up to her, introduce youself, and talk TO her, not About her to anyone else within earshot.
Jesus, man up Cieli and get it over with already.
Thu 31 Mar, 2011 12:41 pm
I haven't talked to the woman because yesterday was the first time I've seen her since the incident and she was on the other side of the park and I had to go, I'd been there for two hours and had an apt.
I think the term Man Up is stupid. I'm female and I can't grow a set either.
I'll remember this the next time you have an issue though, since I thought this was the place to discuss things. I didn't restart the thread, I responded to a late post. So um, what the hell is your problem. If you have a problem with me starting a thread and/or responding to an old thread, perhaps you and Goldman can start a mutual bitch session or you can refrain from the vitriol and ignore the posts.
Thu 31 Mar, 2011 01:04 pm
Look, the initial question wasn't asking for a show of hands on who liked kicking dogs, it was a question on how I should respond to this woman. So far, most of you haven't answered that question just told me that it's cool to kick a dog.
My dogs are trained, they've spent most of their life joined to my hip by a leash. It's been a pain in the ass but they don't venture to far from me and definitely listen when I speak and/or call them.
Yeah, I may have owned the dogs for 10 months and counting but that doesn't mean I haven't been around dogs or haven't learned everything I could in that short amount of time about dogs and their behavior. I have never said I'm an expert but then again, I didn't say this was rocket science either.
Once again, I'm well aware of the risks of owning dogs and that there are unknowns no matter where or what i do with them.
I'm sorry you don't believe dogs don't have a hierarchy or that dogs have their own set of rules or language, they do. I'm sorry you won't contemplate dogs in the wild and how they behave either. There are several good resources you might want to check out.
I haven't had problems with the other dogs, just one woman and I asked for advice on how to handle it, in the future, if it ever happened again. I've also stated that if my dogs did do something that was dangerous or violent, I would do the right thing and take care of the matter. I've still not been able to talk to this woman. But as I've said, I doubt that anything I say or do will change her attitude or behavior, going by what others have told me.
I've only read three things you've ever posted so, I think it's a bit extreme saying I have found all your statements extreme, I haven't had the history with you one way or the other to make that kind of judgement. Mind you, you have now called me delusional, so it's kind of difficult to take anything you say with a grain of salt. But thanks for wishing me luck, I'll take all that I can get.
Funnily enough, Cesar sent out an email today talking about aggressive play or dogs mouthing other dogs, which didn't happen in my case, but I did exactly what he said to do. So, in the future, I won't be asking the experts here for any advice on this matter, as I've seen the level of intelligent answers one gets when asked. I have subsequently asked several dog trainers for their advice and strangely, none of them thought kicking the dog was the answer either. They've met my dogs and have seen how we interact.
If this ever happens again, I will press charges. Plain and simple.
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