28
   

A woman kicked my dog.

 
 
djjd62
 
  0  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 03:40 pm
all i can hope is that this woman falls down a set of stairs, breaks her neck, nobody notices her missing and her dog eats her

cruel maybe, but would serve her right
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 03:59 pm
@Ceili,
Ceili wrote:
You're calling me rude...


You called me "low" for advocating someone's right to defend themselves against dogs. Dogs can kill, if someone feels physically threatened by a dog they are within their rights to defend themselves and a kick is not nearly as bad as what I have heard (a friend recently told me about a doberman who attacked a guy in a park and the guy tore off his lower jaw, I wish that guy just kicked the dog and I ******* hate the doberman's owner).

Quote:
I'm not a mind reader.


Then ask first maybe? I'm more than willing to tell any large dog owner that I don't want their dog anywhere near my bite-sized dogs regardless of whether they feel in control or not. But they never ask first of course and just get pissy if I don't let their dog get up in our faces (all I ever do is just pick up my dogs, but even this gets dog owners who feel their dogs have a right to get in everyone's face uppity).


Quote:
If big dogs freak people out, why go to a park where big dogs are going to be.


Why can't they be able to go to a dog park and just have the large dog owners keep their dogs out of their personal space if they wish? Does the whole dog park have to be ceded to the owner with the biggest and most obnoxious dog?


Quote:
The little dogs have no problem what so ever in defending them selves. None of the dogs, theirs or mine were freaking out, it was one woman in particular.


That may well be true, but it is not yours to decide where their personal space ends. If they feel threatened at all by your dog then they have a right to coexist without being molested by your dog. Even if you think they are silly to feel that way it is their right.


Quote:
Go a head, kick a dog, I hope it comes back to bite you.


I think you are being a dick for trying to make me sound like I would abuse dogs just because I advocate the right of anyone to defend themselves against dogs they feel threatened by.

I have never harmed a dog in my life, but I have had to protect smaller dogs and people from agressive dogs many times and many times only to get berated by the owner of the dog who is going around attacking other dogs and people.

So far I have never felt threatened enough to need to kick one but I imagine the older lady had less to work with than I do and I am sick and tired of dog owners who let their dogs get up in the personal space of others who do not like it and then get uppity about the person's reaction.

I find it incredibly rude when it's just a small dog, and the owner let's the dog do things like hump legs and jump on people, but when it's a larger dog you are often frightening people, which to me adds a new inconsiderate dimension to it.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 04:01 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
I did not give them permission to have their dog roughhouse with my dog


if you take your dog to an off-leash, you are giving permission for the dogs to play together - and dogs playing together is rough-housing. it's not a tea party.
Robert Gentel
 
  0  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 04:04 pm
@ehBeth,
Sure, but it's not permission to get any degree of rough (and in my particular cases are not in any kind of dog parks, which don't exist here). And if a dog owner feels things are getting too rough they are perfectly within their rights to intervene. An old lady kicking at a large dog is incredibly unlikely to be much rougher than the dogs themselves are being.

Would the corollary be that letting your dog get up in the face of others is to give them permission to kick at it if they don't like it?
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 04:10 pm
I'm sort of neutral here, but as Ceili said the woman's own dog was in the midst of all the play romping as not the least of the participants. I surmise, perhaps wrongly, that the woman was acting aggressively out of misplaced fears (which she is said to have done before, apparently by several dog-parkers). Fear biters are well known in the dog world, so this is ironic if that is what was happening, fear-kicking.

I was lucky myself, that dys counseled that I take Pacco to that back yard where Sally Dog was. He's a rancher, knows animals well. (Have him tell the puma story sometime). I made myself listen to him. I'd had a long day of driving fast to get to Albuquerque before it started getting dark, and it was getting dark, hard for me to see well. So, I was tense. He was right, the dogs worked it out.

I think it is hard for all of us who weren't there to tell who was the aggressor here - a group of dogs play fighting, dogs acting in a way that scared the elderly woman with no sense, the woman with no sense kicking a dog, or... dogs actually starting to fight. I believe Ceili on this.

First time I saw the doberman and pacco play fight I was lucky my business partner was right there (a texas born woman who used to do rodeo and rescued dogs), so I can somewhat sympathize with the elderly woman, as I had a flash of fear when it started. Later, I always watched it with a kind of joy.

Chances are very good I'll never kick a dog, but I can understand the action.

0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 04:15 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
An old lady kicking at a large dog is incredibly unlikely to be much rougher than the dogs themselves are being.


she didn't kick at a large dog. the dog in this case is a 22 pound dog.

there's no excuse for kicking a large dog, but it wasn't in fact a large dog.

if a dog owner doesn't think their dog can handle the play that happens in off-leash they shouldn't take the dog. As I've already posted, I am extremely cautious about taking the female dog into an off-leash. I evaluate the humans in the area as much as I consider the dogs - before I go in. I don't want Cleo to be stressed by bad people or aggressive puppies.
Robert Gentel
 
  0  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 04:29 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:

there's no excuse for kicking a large dog, but it wasn't in fact a large dog.


You can't be serious if you are on this "no excuse to kick a large dog" nonsense. Every single day large dogs will kill smaller dogs somewhere (or even smaller people sometimes) and it's just patent nonsense to claim that there is never an "excuse" to kick a dog. Of course there is, it's called self-defense.

Now it's probably the case that the event described is just not one of those cases but claiming there's no excuse to kick a dog is just plain silly.

Quote:
if a dog owner doesn't think their dog can handle the play that happens in off-leash they shouldn't take the dog. As I've already posted, I am extremely cautious about taking the female dog into an off-leash. I evaluate the humans in the area as much as I consider the dogs - before I go in. I don't want Cleo to be stressed by bad people or aggressive puppies.


I agree with this sentiment but don't agree with previously expressed ones to the effect that this grants permission for whatever degree of roughhousing that follows.
0 Replies
 
Ragman
 
  4  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 04:33 pm
There is credence for both sides of this debate. I'm a dog owner but before I was a dog owner (and properly trained) and visited dog parks, I wouldn't know what the right protocol should be that goes down.

However, because I didn't see how the personal space of this old woman was threatened I'll refrain from comment as to whether or not she was justified for wanting to defend herself from the dog.

If I didn't see a dog park (with leash-off rules), I'd not know what it is all about. My local park (Sarasota FL) has a hard fenced-in area for segregating both large and small dogs.

My own dog (50 lb Border Collie) is never a problem for large or small dogs. He focuses only on the ball I throw. As far as he's concerned the other dogs are superfluous and they can sniff him, romp in front of him even take the ball ... and he disregards them. His nature is non-agressive and not interested. He will chase and race for the ball but not attack the dog.

However, here at this park the dogs that are 'problem children' are often connected to untrained owners. It only takes a few visits to sort out who they are. I agree that it's the responsibility of the owner to watch his dog and curtail any behavior in a park that anyone might feel threatened by. Not that easy if the dog is unleashed.

Certain risk is just inherant in a leash-off park, but kicking a large strange dog should be a last resort and only used if clearly threatened. Likewise, if the old woman was that fearful of a dog merely walking by her and barking, perhaps she needs a kick in the ribs. Better yet, give her some appropriate dog-and-people training.

Without seeing video we can't know where this actually would balance out.
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 04:39 pm
@Ragman,
I agree with this 100%. And upon reflection my first comment to this thread (that I'd kick the dog and be angry at Celi) is uncalled for, I don't have the information to make that decision.

However I stand by the rest of what I said, there are situations at which the person is completely within their right to kick someone's dog, I just have no idea if this was one of those cases.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 04:51 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Agree.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  3  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 05:55 pm
@Ceili,
Ceili wrote:

You're calling me rude... Do you take your dog to an off leash park? I'm not a mind reader. If big dogs freak people out, why go to a park where big dogs are going to be. The little dogs have no problem what so ever in defending them selves. None of the dogs, theirs or mine were freaking out, it was one woman in particular. I've passed this woman scores of times, how was I to know this time would be different. There wasn't anything unusual happening until she started yelling about the "******* mutt", her words, not mine. She kicked the dog before I had a chance to do anything. As I've said, after the encounter, other people mentioned to me that she's done this before.
I've read everything I can on dog behavior. I didn't see any need to kick the dog. The dogs had bowed down, a singal or sign for play, then they started running and barking. It's what dogs do. As I've said, I gathered the dogs up and walked away. I didn't have to pull them apart or risk my hand getting chewed. I didn't even have to leash them, they followed me with no problem. This is the first time I've ever had this problem.
Go a head, kick a dog, I hope it comes back to bite you.




I have known two occasions where people I know had their little dogs killed by bigger dogs whose owners later said that they had thought their big dogs were safe off leash and were just being playful.

I don't know the rights and wrongs of this incident, but I am also finding it difficult that so much pejorative rhetoric is being used against people whose side of the story we have no ability to hear.

I would also be very hesitant about kicking a dog, but would, and have, in extreme circumstances. (That circumstance being when a woman brought her blue heeler dog over on a leash to admire my cats, which I was grooming in my fenced front yard. I mean she came over to admire the cats...and brought the dog. The dog instantly jumped the fence, pulling the leash from her hand, and grabbed one of my cats. I managed to hold its jaws open with my bare hands while waiting for her to come and control her dog. When she eventually joined us, it was clear she was too scared to have an idea what to do, and I couldn't pull the dog's jaws open enough to extricate the cat. So I kicked the dog as hard as I could in the belly. It let go, and I then took firm control of the animal, and firmly returned her and it to the other side of my fence and told her to keep control of her ******* dog. I might add that there was blood everywhere (which later turned out to be mine, thank heavens). She then berated me for swearing at her dog which she said was just playing.


Such is life.
Ragman
 
  3  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 06:13 pm
@dlowan,
Not that rare a circumstance and so very unfortunate. I'm glad you and your cat were OK and you took control of this out-of-control mess. Sometimes so many pet owners panic and fail to act in time or at all.

That is the tragic part. If dogs have to be licensed, so should owners be given at least 10-20 hrs of training as to how to control their dog and establish who and what is alpha, how to make sure your dog knows. However, some dogs as well as some people cannot get these essential concepts. when you watch The Dog Whisperer you'll notice what he uses for effective techniques.

What ever could that woman have been thinking to bring her dog that close to a potential powder keg?! Clearly, if she was that curious, she should have come back without her damned dog.
dlowan
 
  4  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 06:17 pm
@dlowan,
Oh, and just to express my full moral bankruptcy, I have recalled an incident when I was about 14, when I heard a terrible noise, ran outside and found two rottweilers literally doing their best to tear apart a little dog they were having a tug of war with. No owners in sight.

I know there was a lot of yelling and pummeling of the rottweilers and I suspect there may well have been some kicking too.

It sure got their attention, anyway and I am happy to say that the little dog ran off in one direction and I managed to get the rottweilers running off in the other.

And I am not sorry if I kicked them.



Ceili
 
  5  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 06:39 pm
Obviously, I have not been clear enough. This woman was not near the dogs, the dogs did not approach her, she went to them and started yelling and then kicked the dog. The dogs we not biting or nipping, just barking and jumping around all over each other. It was loud. 7 or 8 dogs will be loud. There were several little dogs in the mix as well..
Again, the path is about 1km long mis-shapen oval, about 10 ft. wide, with a deep snow covered field surrounding the path. There is absolutely no way to avoid other people or dogs. We all walk the same circular path.
Again, I've never had this problem before.
I would never, ever let my dogs near a cat off leash. Murph's been around cats a lot, he's fine but the little guys haven't. I don't know what they'd do in the circumstance, I wouldn't even attempt it.
To repeat what I've said before... I've never seen dogs fight violently at the park. I've never heard of a person or dog being wounded and I've never seen blood. For the past 6 months, the park has been covered in snow. I've not seen a drop of the red stuff.
Dogs have a pecking order. Some little dogs boss the big ones around with no problems, they are definately the alphas. Others just want to be left alone, big or small. Dogs learn to respect that.
If my dogs had attacked the woman or jumped on her or anyone else, I could understand the fear and I would have beat them myself. That didn't happen. They were only playing with each other. The pup in question didn't whimper or try to hide, he was being chased, but that is not uncommon. In the next minute, it would have been a different dog.

In rare cases, I can understand defending a dog, but I think we humans jump in way too fast. These aren't kids, they are perfectly capable of defending themselves.
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 06:42 pm
@dlowan,
dlowan wrote:
She then berated me for swearing at her dog which she said was just playing.


Gack.

I've told stories here before about how sozlet was traumatized several times by "playful" dogs whose owners wouldn't control them, starting when she was a toddler. (All of the incidents were in either neutral areas like the street or places they expressly were not supposed to be, like a no-dogs-allowed park). It took a lot of work to get her to be comfortable with dogs because of those incidents. (Now she loves them, thanks in large part to the very well-trained dogs of one of our neighbors).

I've been reading with interest but haven't commented because what is being said about the etiquette of the dog park makes sense to me, and I don't have experience with dog parks.

But I have definitely met absolutely clueless dog owners, and have definitely been in situations where I was ready to do harm to the dog before it did harm to others (in the situation where I came closest, I was able to get the dog off of my hysterical daughter, who had tripped when fleeing from it on the beach [where dogs were not allowed] without doing harm to the dog).
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 06:43 pm
@dlowan,
Well, i don't think you did anything wrong in kicking the dogs in the examples you have provided. I could not have provided an example in which i would have kicked a dog. Once, while visiting a friend who has two blue heelers, another friend came by with a dog known to us all, including the heelers. But the heeler bitch decided to attack. The heeler dog (her son) also attacked, and i grabbed him, threw him to the ground and held him down. He didn't try to bite me. I understand that your situation was different.
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 06:54 pm
@Ceili,
I'm so tempted to say something sensationalistic like "next time you see her drop kick her like a sack of potatoes" but I know better. As I wrote before, I would love to have been able to see a video of the event.

However, the next time you see her, a word in her ear about that incident and how you feel might be in order.
0 Replies
 
Mame
 
  2  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 06:56 pm
@Setanta,
You're bigger than most females and it is quite frightening to be confronted with an aggressive dog that you don't know and who doesn't know you. I don't know what affect I'd have if I tried to wrestle an aggressive/exuberant dog who weighed nearly what I weigh.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 07:07 pm
@Mame,
Sure, i understand that. The heeler i threw to the ground knew me, and i assume understood that i didn't intend to harm him.
0 Replies
 
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2011 07:17 pm
@Mame,
Mame wrote:

You're bigger than most females and it is quite frightening to be confronted with an aggressive dog that you don't know and who doesn't know you. I don't know what affect I'd have if I tried to wrestle an aggressive/exuberant dog who weighed nearly what I weigh.


I was thinking the same thing mame. Set's a big guy and hold a dog down much better, and with more authority than most people.

BTW, a 22 pound dog, for instance is a beagle.

I can honestly say that I truly am afraid of beagles. When I was a kid, my friends beagle had puppies, and the dog let other kids look at and touch them, but for some reason when I did, she bit at me. I freaked and ran away, she gave chase, nipping at me all around the yard. Of course the other kids thought that funny, and I felt really scared and helpless.
I know that experience stuck with me, and I give out beagle fear vibes, because every other beagle I've ever been around (maybe 1/2 a dozen) either nip at me, growl or give me the hairy eyeball. Doesn't matter that I stay clear across the room.

22 pounds of teeth coming at you is no joke.

I'll tell you what, those 2 or 3 pound chihuahuas know no fear either, and will come at you like a bat out of hell.

I'll never forget this one time, I was going for a walk and this chihuahua was just walking down the middle of the street.
This guy came up and tooted it's horn, so the dog would get out of the way.

This little dog turned around and was like "**** YOU". He stood there, refusing to move one more step. He wasn't scared, he barked at that car like he was saying "I'll show you, now I ain't movin!"

 

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