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Are you against Christian Sharia Law?

 
 
Renaldo Dubois
 
  0  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2011 07:29 am
@failures art,
I didn't move anything. You have now jumped to assuming everyone who is anti drugs is a Christian. You haven't used any drugs, at least that's what you claim. Therefore I can assume you are a Christian.
CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2011 07:38 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
1. Property rights. They have the right to build a house of worship on a piece of property that they own where there is no legal reason that would prevent them (note the key word here is "legal" meaning "having to do with the law". the opinions of people who oppose, distrust and/or hate them is not a legal reason).

So where in this country have they been denied this right? I don't believe they have been. There have been some arguing against their building something but they have not been denied this right.

Quote:
2. Presumed innocence (you may know this as "innocence until proven guilty"). You accusing them as being guilty of all sorts of terrible crimes. Of course, under the law they are innocent of any of these crimes until they are convicted by a court with due process.

Had any muslim been denied this right, then papers would be full of muslims sentenced to prison without a trial. I have not heard of any such thing, but if you can provide an example, then I would accept your point that muslims in the US have been denied this right. Just because someone accuses a muslim (or anyone else) of something does not mean they have been denied this right.

Quote:
3., 4. and 5. Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Association and Due process rights. All guaranteed by the US Constitution and protected by our Judicial branch (see the 1st 4th and 5th amendments in the link I posted).

I don't believe any of these have been denied to any muslim either. I'm sure you have examples, right?

Just because some individuals have, since 911 particularly, an issue with muslims and have taken a prejudicial stance against muslims does not translate into their being denied rights.
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2011 08:21 am
@Renaldo Dubois,
Renaldo Dubois wrote:

I didn't move anything.

You asked about "Christians" and then you replied about "churches." You need to show more discipline in your language.

Renaldo Dubois wrote:

You have now jumped to assuming everyone who is anti drugs is a Christian.

I did not say this. We are talking about the laws that are in place in the USA. Those laws were instituted by Christians. That's simply a fact. It does not make Christians the only people who are are anti-drug. It does mean that the group that decided that it was within the scope of law, were Christians. Do you deny history?

Renaldo Dubois wrote:

You haven't used any drugs, at least that's what you claim. Therefore I can assume you are a Christian.

That would be a poor application of logic.

A
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revelette
 
  3  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2011 08:24 am
@CoastalRat,
Quote:


Quote:
2. Presumed innocence (you may know this as "innocence until proven guilty"). You accusing them as being guilty of all sorts of terrible crimes. Of course, under the law they are innocent of any of these crimes until they are convicted by a court with due process.



Had any muslim been denied this right, then papers would be full of muslims sentenced to prison without a trial. I have not heard of any such thing, but if you can provide an example, then I would accept your point that muslims in the US have been denied this right. Just because someone accuses a muslim (or anyone else) of something does not mean they have been denied this right.


Quote:

November 5, 2001, the DOJ reported that it had detained 1,182 people as part of the official investigation into the 9/11 attacks. Since that announcement, the government has failed to give any further accounting of the number of people it held for purposes of investigating the 9/11 attacks. The perception that Arab, Muslim, Sikh, or South Asian Americans could be instantly “disappeared” by the federal government under the pretense of the 9/11 investigation created a great deal of panic and disruption, according to advocacy organizations like CAIR. The actual number of people detained without criminal charge as “material witnesses” to the 9/11 investigation, almost all of whom are presumably Arab, Muslim, Sikh or South Asian, is unknown. In 2009, a federal court ruled (in Al-Kidd v. Ashcroft) that former attorney general John Ashcroft may personally be held liable for wrongful detention as a result of these policies. The Supreme Court took up this case in 2010 and is expected to rule shortly.


source



Renaldo Dubois
 
  0  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2011 08:53 am
@failures art,
Of course that's a poor application of logic. It shows your logic to be flawed. Talk about moving the goal posts.
Renaldo Dubois
 
  0  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2011 08:55 am
@revelette,
The person who wrote the article is not a journalist. He is a professor and an activist for muslims.
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  2  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2011 08:56 am
@Renaldo Dubois,
It's not my logic--it is yours. You based it off of assumptions you shouldn't have made. You attribute ideas to me which are not my own and then attack them. That is the definition of a strawman. You are applying a logical fallacy.

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Renaldo Dubois
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2011 09:12 am
@failures art,
Now read your last post until you understand your own words. You did exactly the same thing by ASSUMING that everyone who passes a bill that you THINK is Christian law is automatically voted on by only Christians.

You really are one very confused person. That's why you keep going in circles.
CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2011 09:18 am
@revelette,
So you go back 10 years, to just after the 9/11 attacks to find that some people were detained during a criminal investigation of the attacks. You or I could be detained in the same manner during a criminal investigation. This is in no way proof that their right presumption of innocence was taken away. Give me a break.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2011 09:26 am
@CoastalRat,
CoastalRat wrote:

So you go back 10 years, to just after the 9/11 attacks to find that some people were detained during a criminal investigation of the attacks. You or I could be detained in the same manner during a criminal investigation. This is in no way proof that their right presumption of innocence was taken away. Give me a break.

No, he didn't go back 10 years. Read it again Coastal. In 2009, the courts said that Ashcroft could be personally sued over this which is on appeal.
You and I can't be held in that manner without consequences to someone in the legal system that abuses it in that fashion. If I was held for more than 3 days in an investigation without access to the courts I could sue their asses off.

**** edit ** it appears the USSC has heard arguments but has not given a ruling on the case
http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/ashcroft-v-al-kidd/
Renaldo Dubois
 
  0  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2011 09:44 am
@parados,
Good luck with that one. People on the left continually forget that an act war changes everything. Investigating people during war is not taking away their rights.
parados
 
  3  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2011 09:46 am
@Renaldo Dubois,
Renaldo Dubois wrote:

Good luck with that one. People on the left continually forget that an act war changes everything. Investigating people during war is not taking away their rights.

Holding people without charging them with a crime or allowing them access to courts IS taking away their rights.
Renaldo Dubois
 
  0  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2011 09:49 am
@parados,
Not during wartime.
parados
 
  4  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2011 09:51 am
@Renaldo Dubois,
I see.. So Obama could send the FBI to your house to arrest you and it wouldn't be a violation of your rights. You would agree to go with them since you feel they could do that. He could then hold you for the next 10 years and you couldn't see a lawyer or a judge. We are at war after all.
failures art
 
  2  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2011 09:51 am
@Renaldo Dubois,
Renaldo Dubois wrote:

Now read your last post until you understand your own words. You did exactly the same thing by ASSUMING that everyone who passes a bill that you THINK is Christian law is automatically voted on by only Christians.

Oh, you're correct. I omitted that some of the congress people were also Jewish. The fact remains, that these laws are religiously motivated.

Renaldo Dubois wrote:

You really are one very confused person. That's why you keep going in circles.

Because you say so, but then again, I'm still waiting for you to resolve numerous contradictions in your arguments.

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Renaldo Dubois
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2011 10:12 am
@parados,
If I was suspected of making war on the USA, I would expect Obama to investigate me. Wouldn't you?
Renaldo Dubois
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2011 10:13 am
@failures art,
Some of the American congress are also Muslim. Two in the House. This is America. We have many nationalities and religions in our congress. You need to get out more.
revelette
 
  2  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2011 10:18 am
@Renaldo Dubois,
Quote:
If I was suspected of making war on the USA, I would expect Obama to investigate me. Wouldn't you?


They were not suspected of making war on the US, they were simply rounded up in a dragnet because they fit the profile of looking like the ones who hijacked the planes on 9/11 to be held without charges for purposes of so called "material witnesses."
parados
 
  2  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2011 10:19 am
@Renaldo Dubois,
Renaldo Dubois wrote:

If I was suspected of making war on the USA, I would expect Obama to investigate me. Wouldn't you?

So.. if your neighbor says they suspect you, that is good enough for you? You better go down and turn yourself in.
Renaldo Dubois
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2011 10:29 am
@revelette,
That is what I said. Semantics.
0 Replies
 
 

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