Arizona loves the Constitution so much....

gungasnake wrote:

Anybody think this business is just about Arizona??

No. Stupidity of this magnitude clearly transcends state boundaries.

0 Replies

@OmSigDAVID,

David no matter what conditions one of the first states had put on their joining the union as far as I am aware of no Federal court in the history of the nation had rule that such a condition is valid or have any force.

Second more to the point Arizona would have no standing to even attempted to put such an argument forward as it join the union a half century after it had became very settle law that states nullifications was an invalid concept.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

So it is your position that the taking by arm force of the territory that is now West Virgina from Virgina was not valid and therefore the state of West Virgina is not a valid state?

No.

BillRM wrote:

Second the southern states was control by the Federal government after the civil war and only readmitted as states under the terms set by the Congress of the US.

That is a factual error.
The States were occupied.
The Northern theory was that the Southern States never withdrew.
The Unionists alleged that it was impossible.

BillRM wrote:

I see nothing that would had force the US to had readmitted them if it did not care to do so.

See above.

BillRM wrote:

So in short Congress had exercised the power you are claiming they do not have on a very large scale indeed already and I see nothing that would stop them from doing so once more in times of needs and civil war.

Lincoln used only brute force.

When the U.S. Constitution was ratified,
the States did not commit themselves to join something
from which thay coud not quit, the same way that when we
joined NATO, or the United Nations, we did not join a group
from which we coud not withdraw if we wanted to.

If u believe that there is something in the Constitution
that prevents States from leaving if thay wanna,
please tell me what it IS.

David

1 Reply

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

So it is your position that the taking by arm force of the territory that is now West Virgina from Virgina was not valid and therefore the state of West Virgina is not a valid state?

No.

BillRM wrote:

Second the southern states was control by the Federal government after the civil war and only readmitted as states under the terms set by the Congress of the US.

That is a factual error.
The States were occupied.
The Northern theory was that the Southern States never withdrew.
The Unionists alleged that it was impossible.

BillRM wrote:

I see nothing that would had force the US to had readmitted them if it did not care to do so.

See above.

BillRM wrote:

So in short Congress had exercised the power you are claiming they do not have on a very large scale indeed already and I see nothing that would stop them from doing so once more in times of needs and civil war.

Lincoln used only brute force.

When the U.S. Constitution was ratified,
the States did not commit themselves to join something
from which thay coud not quit, the same way that when we
joined NATO, or the United Nations, we did not join a group
from which we coud not withdraw if we wanted to.

If u believe that there is something in the Constitution
that prevents States from leaving if thay wanna,
please tell me what it IS.

David

1 Reply

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

David no matter what conditions one of the first states had put on their joining the union as far as I am aware of no Federal court in the history of the nation had rule that such a condition is valid or have any force.

I am not aware that this point has been litigated.
There remains the question of a court being the judge in its own cause.

The States whose ratifications created the Union
woud never have joined up if they believed that
thay were getting themselves TRAPPED -- that the door
works one way only, no matter how bad thay wanted to get out.

Bill, think about it:
woud u walk into a room
if u knew that u coud NEVER come out of it again ??

BillRM wrote:

Second more to the point Arizona would have no standing to even attempted to put such an argument forward as it join the union a half century after it had became very settle law that states nullifications was an invalid concept.

As the USSC has pointed out many, many times:
unConstitutional laws are void and of no effect.

For instance:
suppose that Congress enacted a statute that
u have to be in Church by 8 A.M. each Sunday and it assigns u a Church.

0 Replies

Smart people are awake and moving forward with real change for the better.

0 Replies

@OmSigDAVID,

Quote:

If u believe that there is something in the Constitution
that prevents States from leaving if thay wanna,
please tell me what it IS.

There are times David when the real universe intervene over legal theory and the fighting for independent from British, the throwing away/walking away from the Articles of Confederation, and the stopping of the Southern states from leaving the union are all examples of this.

Under the legal code of British there was no rights to take up arms against them by their colonies.

There was a working government under the Article of Confederation and no where in that document was there a right for the states to just walk away from it in the manner they in fact did so.

It was an ex-legal convention that set up our current government and indeed also set up the conditions for it ratification.

President Lincoln indeed did not go to the courts to ask if he could stop the southern states from leaving anymore then the founding fathers ask the congress under the Article of Confederation for permission to set up a completely different government.

In the case of another civil war the Federal government will do what it needed to do and the courts are not likely to get involved and if they did the other two branches are not likely to care one way or another.

West Virginia was created in a manner that you can not find in the constitution and yet it is a state and you are right no where in the US constitution did it address the right of the states to leave or not and yet the states was stop from leaving by arm force.

Hell the current US government is illegal by your logic for the reasons already given.

Interesting footnote the Confederate States of America constitution had in it a clause forbidding the Southern states from leaving unlike the US Constitution.

0 Replies

@OmSigDAVID,

Quote:

If u believe that there is something in the Constitution
that prevents States from leaving if thay wanna,
please tell me what it IS.

Forget about the Constitution here; let's look at the practical reality.

We kicked the **** out of the last group who tried to secede and we'll kick the **** out of the next group that tries to do so. If AZ wants to get the **** kicked out of them, I say hey - let 'em go for it. They have no military and couldn't stand up to the US army in even a nominal fashion.

In short, states have no ability to secede whatsoever, no matter whether you think they should or not. It is quite clear that the Federal government supersedes State governments in cases like this.

Cycloptichorn

3 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Quote:

In short, states have no ability to secede whatsoever, no matter whether you think they should or not. It is quite clear that the Federal government supersedes State governments in cases like this.

You stated the situation in a lot fewer words then I did good going.

2 Replies

@BillRM,

Quote:

In short, states have no ability to secede whatsoever, no matter whether you think they should or not. It is quite clear that the Federal government supersedes State governments in cases like this.

BillRM wrote:

You stated the situation in a lot fewer words then I did good going.

No; false statement.
The feasibility of leaving the Union is NOT
what is being argued here.
I did not address that.

David

0 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

David wrote:

If u believe that there is something in the Constitution
that prevents States from leaving if thay wanna,
please tell me what it IS.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Forget about the Constitution here; let's look at the practical reality.

We can look at practical reality,
but I refuse to forget about the Constitution here.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

We kicked the **** out of the last group who tried to secede and we'll kick the **** out of the next group that tries to do so. If AZ wants to get the **** kicked out of them, I say hey - let 'em go for it. They have no military and couldn't stand up to the US army in even a nominal fashion.

In short, states have no ability to secede whatsoever, no matter whether you think they should or not. It is quite clear that the Federal government supersedes State governments in cases like this.

Cycloptichorn

R u consciously aware that u have adopted
the filosofy that "might makes right" ?????

David

1 Reply

@BillRM,

I respectfully request that u answer my post to u:

"The States whose ratifications created the Union
woud never have joined up if they believed that
thay were getting themselves TRAPPED -- that the door
works one way only, no matter how bad thay wanted to get out.

Bill, think about it:
woud u walk into a room
if u knew that u coud NEVER come out of it again ??"

David

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

OmSigDAVID wrote:

David wrote:
If u believe that there is something in the Constitution
that prevents States from leaving if thay wanna,
please tell me what it IS.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Forget about the Constitution here; let's look at the practical reality.
We can look at practical reality,
but I refuse to forget about the Constitution here.

Cycloptichorn wrote:
We kicked the **** out of the last group who tried to secede and we'll kick the **** out of the next group that tries to do so. If AZ wants to get the **** kicked out of them, I say hey - let 'em go for it. They have no military and couldn't stand up to the US army in even a nominal fashion.

In short, states have no ability to secede whatsoever, no matter whether you think they should or not. It is quite clear that the Federal government supersedes State governments in cases like this.

Cycloptichorn
R u consciously aware that u have adopted
the filosofy that "might makes right" ?????

David

Whether it's right or not, that will be the consequence of an attempt to secede. Why pretend reality is any different?

As a citizen of America, I deny that any state or organization has the right to secede from our control. It's the same thing as stealing part of America from current citizens and the future citizens. People who attempt it should be treated like any other thieves.

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

@OmSigDAVID,

Quote:

I respectfully request that u answer my post to u:

"The States whose ratifications created the Union
woud never have joined up if they believed that
thay were getting themselves TRAPPED -- that the door
works one way only, no matter how bad thay wanted to get out.

Bill, think about it:
woud u walk into a room
if u knew that u coud NEVER come out of it again ??"

If they was concern about the issue of a right for a state to leave one would assume they would had placed it in the constitution.

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

All of the big empires in history started with a few people and an idea....

1 Reply

@gungasnake,

gungasnake wrote:

All of the big empires in history started with a few people and an idea....

Those people usually had some sort of prowess or skill. The group you are talking about has neither.

But hey, spin your wheels with your fantasies, it's all the same to the rest of us.

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Quote:

We kicked the **** out of the last group who tried to secede and we'll kick the **** out of the next group that tries to do so. If AZ wants to get the **** kicked out of them...

Arizona won't start that on its own. IF it happens, it will start with Texas and Utah, and good luck to any Obunga-led community organizers and aging hippies trying to kick the **** out of them....

1 Reply

@gungasnake,

gungasnake wrote:

Quote:
We kicked the **** out of the last group who tried to secede and we'll kick the **** out of the next group that tries to do so. If AZ wants to get the **** kicked out of them...

Arizona won't start that on its own. IF it happens, it will start with Texas and Utah, and good luck to any Obunga-led community organizers and aging hippies trying to kick the **** out of them....

It won't be hippies but the US army coming down on them. That's how rebellions are put down. And this time, the States in question have no counter-forces that could stop them. It's not a matter of issuing rifles to individuals any longer.

Any state which attempted to secede would likely find their capitol building ringed with tanks within about a day, with precious little ability to do anything about it...

The most important thing that you are missing out on here, though, is that the people of these states don't WANT to secede.

Oh, and by the way, Utah? Is that a joke? Laughing

Cycloptichorn

2 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Quote:

It won't be hippies but the US army coming down on them. That's how rebellions are put down. And this time, the States in question have no counter-forces that could stop them. It's not a matter of issuing rifles to individuals any longer.

Not that simple as the states have national guard troops some of whom might be loyal to their states.

Interesting in any case is it not how the true blue Americans of the right wing are the ones who are most eager to take up arms and be traitors to the US if they do not get their way.

0 Replies

@BillRM,

David wrote:

I respectfully request that u answer my post to u:

"The States whose ratifications created the Union
woud never have joined up if they believed that
thay were getting themselves TRAPPED -- that the door
works one way only, no matter how bad thay wanted to get out.

Bill, think about it:
woud u walk into a room
if u knew that u coud NEVER come out of it again ??"

BillRM wrote:

If they was concern about the issue of a right for a state to leave
one would assume they would had placed it in the constitution.

The TENTH AMENDMENT.

I ask u a 3rd time:
woud u walk into a room
if u knew that u coud NEVER come out of it again??

David

3 Replies

Arizona loves the Constitution so much....

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