0
   

THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ VI

 
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2004 06:42 pm
ican711nm wrote:
Question Question Question
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2004 06:44 pm
Why does it seem such a stretch to believe that there are peoples on this earth that would rather follow a man that, to them, represents the crucible of their faith ... what, to them, does another rifle muzzle in different hands mean?
Just besause we freed them of a monster does not mean they should follow our desires and give up their own.
In answer to Scrat: paraphrasing .... those that cast the vote are powerless .... those that count the vote are the power.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2004 06:56 pm
Gelisgesti wrote:
Why does it seem such a stretch to believe that there are peoples on this earth that would rather follow a man that, to them, represents the crucible of their faith ...


It doesn't seem such a stretch for me! I was 14 at the end of WWII. The evidence was all around then to support your point now.

Gelisgesti wrote:
Just besause we freed them of a monster does not mean they should follow our desires and give up their own.


I agree. All they need do is vote NO.

Gelisgesti wrote:
In answer to Scrat: paraphrasing .... those that cast the vote are powerless .... those that count the vote are the power.


I agree with this statement too. But, our motivation to accurately enough report the vote of this plebiscite is adequate. In fact, if there be any bias there, it seems to me that it would be to count some YESes as NOs and not the other way around. See my cost estimate above.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2004 07:04 pm
Thus far we have two proposals:

I. Hold a plebiscite;

II. Turn the whole thing over to the UN.

Proposal I is costly.

Proposal II is identical to what the British did in 1948 when they abandoned Palestine to the UN and the Jews subsequently declared their independence from Palestine.

Any other proposals?
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2004 07:23 pm
OK ....we kill them because they kill us
They kill us because they don't want us there
We don't want to be there
AAAAAHA .... I think Ive spotted the problem
Either we take them under our wing, kicking and screaming, from cradle to grave, or let them make or break it on their own.

If they are capable of kicking the Brits out .... they certainly are a force to wary of. The only bad thing I can see happening is some developed nation setting up a puppet government complete with WMD's, and creating another dictatorship. No one would do that, would they?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2004 07:29 pm
I'm not sure Iraq is immune from "history repeats itself."
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2004 07:37 pm
nor is the US but then, just how many lives will this cost?
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2004 07:49 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
I'm not sure Iraq is immune from "history repeats itself."


Our only chance is to find Superman and have him fly around the Earth in a counter rotational direction, go back in time and fix the problem.
If only we knew what Bush means when he repeats over and over ... stay the 'course' What the hell is 'the course'???????

Shocked errrr .. did I say that out loud?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2004 07:52 pm
Even if some of us do not understand "stay the course" means, it seems half of the American Population does and support whatever it is.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2004 07:53 pm
I heard some political pundit say today that we'll be in Iraq for another five years. What hogwash! Nobody really knows.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2004 08:06 pm
http://www.333rdmp.com/Pictures/Mc_Donalds.jpg
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2004 08:33 pm
It is more than a freak'n shame, but choices are clearly limited if ousting Bush is the primary goal, and very ironically, would coincide with Cheney's philosophy of the ends justifying the means. Puke.

Are there any substantive differences between private security forces and traditional mercenaries. And why are all these bright, ex-military types putting their asses on the line in ill-prepared companies?

It seems that this post will be out of synch as I just noted that there are two more pages. Oh, well.
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2004 08:45 pm
The Bush admin position on the Woodward business apparently will be a variant of: when you are given a lemon, make lemonaide. They can't try the discredit character route, nor dispute the methodology really, so instead, say that everyone should read the book and add it to your website's list of suggested reading.

And Bush's favorability ratings may have gone up slightly - so "stay the course", the quote from the movie "The Patriot" may well be resonating with the traditional knee-jerk reaction to a president in trouble. My president, right or wrong. Witness Clinton's bump in popularity when he was up to his ass (well, OK, wrong side) in trouble.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2004 08:47 pm
Quote:
"I cannot support a failed foreign policy...But before we get deeper embroiled into this ... quagmire, I think that an assessment has to be made of the ... policy so far. [The President] has never explained to the American people why he was involving the U.S. military in a ... war in a sovereign nation, other than to say it is for humanitarian reasons, a new military/foreign policy precedent."

Tom DeLay, House Majority Leader
(Regarding President Clinton and Kosovo)
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2004 09:15 pm
The New York Times has an extensive report on the scope, costs and problems of the military's use of mercenaries in Iraq:

Quote:
With every week of insurgency in a war zone with no front, these companies are becoming more deeply enmeshed in combat, in some cases all but obliterating distinctions between professional troops and private commandos. Company executives see a clear boundary between their defensive roles as protectors and the offensive operations of the military. But more and more, they give the appearance of private, for-profit militias -- by several estimates, a force of roughly 20,000 on top of an American military presence of 130,000...

The price of this partnership is soaring. By some recent government estimates, security costs could claim up to 25 percent of the $18 billion budgeted for reconstruction, a huge and mostly unanticipated expense that could delay or force the cancellation of billions of dollars worth of projects to rebuild schools, water treatment plants, electric lines and oil refineries...

The authority initially estimated that security costs would eat up about 10 percent of the $18 billion in reconstruction money approved by Congress, said Capt. Bruce A. Cole of the Navy, a spokesman for the authority's program management office.

But after months of sabotage and insurgency, some officials now say a much higher percentage will go to security companies that unblushingly charge $500 to $1,500 a day for their most skilled operators...

But some military leaders are openly grumbling that the lure of $500 to $1,500 a day is siphoning away some of their most experienced Special Operations people at the very time their services are most in demand...

For more than a decade, military colleges have produced study after study warning of the potential pitfalls of giving contractors too large a role on the battlefield. The claimed cost savings are exaggerated or illusory, the studies argue. Questions of coordination and oversight have not been adequately resolved. Troops could be put at risk...


Like so much of what's happening in Iraq, using mercenaries has led to unintended consequences, such as running up the cost and draining the special forces that are the foundation of Rumsfeld's "revolution in military affairs."
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2004 10:11 pm
dyslexia wrote:
of course I do, all my ideas are perfect.
July one all US troops and support leave, Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld keep their collective mouths shut, Congress presents Iraq situation to the UN Security Council, Congress accepts whatever is voted in by the UN, the US pays costs appropriate for rebuilding.

Can you offer me any evidence that the UN has any skill in handling this kind of situation?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2004 10:13 pm
dys, I would only add that the reconstruction contracts go out to bid.
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2004 10:16 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
dys, I would only add that the reconstruction contracts go out to bid.

Even if that delays reconstruction of critical infrastructure such as hospitals and schools for a year or more?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 07:54 am
Gelisgesti wrote:
The only bad thing I can see happening is some developed nation setting up a puppet government complete with WMD's, and creating another dictatorship. No one would do that, would they?


I bet that would be the consequence of our departure.

Proposal III.

Continue to try to improve Bush's present approach in the hope it can and will improve in time to save the situation and save us.

It is now irrelevant whether: Bush is incompetent or a genius or something in between; saint or devil or something in between. I bet he is more improvable than any of the alternatives that have surfaced to date. So we got him "for better or worse". He requires our help not our hinderance.

Certainty is impossible and probability suffices to govern belief and action. Get over it!
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2004 08:14 am
ican711nm wrote:
It is now irrelevant whether: Bush is incompetent or a genius or something in between; saint or devil or something in between. ... So we got him "for better or worse". He requires our help not our hinderance.

I am inclined to agree with you in spirit, as I do worry that those who stand against the President in all he does are giving hope to terrorists who want to see our will in the war on terror waver, BUT intellectually I recognize the trap and inherent weakness in the argument that no one should question a wartime President because that will always be good news to our enemies.

The best I could ask is that those who dislike Bush consider the potential ramifications of statements they might wish to make and choose well. I respect your right to speak freely of your displeasure with this administration, and only hope that you would choose your words so as to minimize the likelihood of causing harm to our nation, our people, or our troops.

There's no question in my mind that attacking Bush pleases those who wish this country harm, but I'd rather suffer the consequences of well-considered dissent than suffer the consequences of a society that attempts to quell that dissent.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.04 seconds on 07/20/2025 at 07:25:14