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THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ VI

 
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2004 11:59 am
Quote:
A more sensible course would be to defuse the crisis through negotiations that neither humiliate Mr. Sadr nor allow him to dictate the agenda.

This idea hinges on the assumption that Sadr is or is willing to be a reasonable man. Can anyone reasonably suggest that recent events offer any evidence that this is the case?
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2004 12:14 pm
Despite the sense of nausea it engenders, I have to agree with scrat. Sadr, as a pawn of the Revolutionary Council of Iran, is not someone who should be negotiated with at this time. We should have attempted to strengthen indiginous Iraqi rule, not wasted time with the puppet council. Since (joanie loves)Pachachi was crittical of US policy yesterday, look for him to be tossed, and radicalized.
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sumac
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2004 12:59 pm
I don't know quite why, but I am inclined to believe that Sadr is a pawn of some group, just don't know which.
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2004 02:22 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Ican, al Jazeera has some pretty pictures from Falluja, to go along with your little song.
http://english.aljazeera.net/HomePage
If you sing loud enough, you might be able to block out the horror of what you see there.


Is that how the terrorists do it? They sing songs to block out the horror of what they cause there and what they do there? Incredible! Take away those terrorists and aljazeera will not have such "pretty pictures" to broadcast.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2004 03:36 pm
Sound familiar?


OnWar.com
Armed Conflict
Events Data

The Great Iraqi Revolution 1920

[also called Arab Revolt]
State Entry Exit Combat Forces Population Losses
Britain 1920 1920 50000 45000000 3000
Iraq 1920 1920 75000 3750000 10000

Local outbreaks against British rule had occurred even before the news reached Iraq that the country had been given only mandate status. Upon the death of an important Shia mujtahid (religious scholar) in early May 1920, Sunni and Shia ulama temporarily put aside their differences as the memorial services metamorphosed into political rallies. Ramadan, the Islamic month of fasting, began later in that month; once again, through nationalistic poetry and oratory, religious leaders exhorted the people to throw off the bonds of imperialism. Violent demonstrations and strikes followed the British arrest of several leaders.

When the news of the mandate reached Iraq in late May, a group of Iraqi delegates met with Wilson and demanded independence. Wilson dismissed them as a "handful of ungrateful politicians." Nationalist political activity was stepped up, and the grand mujtahid of Karbala, Imam Shirazi, and his son, Mirza Muhammad Riza, began to organize the effort in earnest. Arab flags were made and distributed, and pamphlets were handed out urging the tribes to prepare for revolt. Muhammad Riza acted as liaison among insurgents in An Najaf and in Karbala, and the tribal confederations. Shirazi then issued a fatwa (religious ruling), pointing out that it was against Islamic law for Muslims to countenance being ruled by non-Muslims, and he called for a jihad against the British. By July 1920, Mosul was in rebellion against British rule, and the insurrection moved south down the Euphrates River valley. The southern tribes, who cherished their long-held political autonomy, needed little inducement to join in the fray. They did not cooperate in an organized effort against the British, however, which limited the effect of the revolt. The country was in a state of anarchy for three months; the British restored order only with great difficulty and with the assistance of Royal Air Force bombers. British forces were obliged to send for reinforcements from India and from Iran.

Ath Thawra al Iraqiyya al Kubra, or The Great Iraqi Revolution (as the 1920 rebellion is called), was a watershed event in contemporary Iraqi history. For the first time, Sunnis and Shias, tribes and cities, were brought together in a common effort. In the opinion of Hanna Batatu, author of a seminal work on Iraq, the building of a nation-state in Iraq depended upon two major factors: the integration of Shias and Sunnis into the new body politic and the successful resolution of the age-old conflicts between the tribes and the riverine cities and among the tribes themselves over the food-producing flatlands of the Tigris and the Euphrates. The 1920 rebellion brought these groups together, if only briefly; this constituted an important first step in the long and arduous process of forging a nation-state out of Iraq's conflict-ridden social structure.

The 1920 revolt had been very costly to the British in both manpower and money. Whitehall was under domestic pressure to devise a formula that would provide the maximum control over Iraq at the least cost to the British taxpayer. The British replaced the military regime with a provisional Arab government, assisted by British advisers and answerable to the supreme authority of the high commissioner for Iraq, Cox. The new administration provided a channel of communication between the British and the restive population, and it gave Iraqi leaders an opportunity to prepare for eventual self-government. The provisional government was aided by the large number of trained Iraqi administrators who returned home when the French ejected Faisal from Syria. Like earlier Iraqi governments, however, the provisional government was composed chiefly of Sunni Arabs; once again the Shias were underrepresented.

At the Cairo Conference of 1921, the British set the parameters for Iraqi political life that were to continue until the 1958 revolution...
Last Update: December 16, 2000
www.onwar.com [email protected]
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2004 03:53 pm
Yes, but Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld would assure that that was different. We are Americans! Wink
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2004 06:38 pm
sumac wrote:
I don't know quite why, but I am inclined to believe that Sadr is a pawn of some group, just don't know which.


And I don't know quite why, but I am inclined to think that George Dubya Bush is a pawn of some group also.

Fact is, he is helping the enemies of this country more by what he is doing that if he simply sat on his hands.

This administration is incompetent. They have totally miscalculated every aspect of this undertaking.

America...and the world...will be much, much better off when they are gone.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2004 06:39 pm
Frank, good to see you. I have missed your gift for gentle understatement over the last few days. Wink
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2004 06:46 pm
Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing


You playing any Poker tonight Ross?
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2004 07:09 pm
In joke, Occam?
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Kara
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2004 07:16 pm
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2004 06:02 am
U.S. Targeted Fiery Cleric In Risky Move

A very instructive and illuminating chronological documentation of the hows and whys of Sadr's rise in influence, and the formation of his military. Relevant circumstances are convincingly linked to actual violent behavior by Sadr supporters.

However, there is certainly the hint of an organization behind all of this. Planning and execution. For instance, the arrival of busloads of men from Baghdad in buses. And where did all the guns come from that these thousands of militiamen carry, and the rocket launchers, etc.? Not from Sadr, I would think.

Someone, or some organization, is directing the activity. It is not spontaneous behavior on the part of hotheaded militiamen.

It is also clear, from this reporting, that the local occupation command in Iraq made many, many mistakes in dealing with Sadr in a timely and effective fashion. There is no mention of directives from on high either.
0 Replies
 
pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2004 06:26 am
Cease Fire
I read elsewhere that al Sadr has declared a cease fire and is open to negotiations. Al Sastini has probably been in contact with him. If the US doesn't ease off al Sistani might not be so laid back in the next few weeks. All it would take is for him to declare an Infitada and the sheeit would hit the fan.
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2004 06:50 am
I haven't read that, or heard it, but I will keep my eyes and ears open. But it will hit the fan, sooner or later, I fear. And Bush's intransigence is not helping matters.

Rejecting Calls for Delay, Bush Sticks to June 30 Iraq Transfer

Quote:
CRAWFORD, Tex., April 10 -- President Bush said the United States would not waver from a June 30 transfer of power in Iraq, rebuffing Democratic concerns that the hasty transition could set off a civil war and more violence against U.S. forces.

"Some have suggested that we should respond to the recent attacks by delaying Iraqi sovereignty. This is precisely what our enemies want," Bush said in a radio address broadcast Saturday. "They want America and our coalition to falter in our commitments before a watching world. In these ambitions, the enemies of freedom will fail. Iraqi sovereignty will arrive on June 30th."
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2004 08:02 am
The White House has released a slightly redacted declassified text of the Presidential Daily Briefing of August 6, 2001, entitled "Bin Ladin [sic!] determined to strike in US", along with an explanatory fact sheet.
The document was the subject of questioning during the public testimony of National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice before the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States on Thursday, April 8, when she characterized it as "historical", rather than a warning .

CNN has posted images of the original documents HERE [PDF].
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2004 09:36 am
Quote:
IRAN, HEZBOLLAH AID CRAZED CLERIC

By NILES LATHEM and URI DAN
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Email Archives
Print Reprint



April 11, 2004 -- EXCLUSIVE

Iran's Revolutionary Guards and the Lebanese terror group Hezbollah are secretly providing outlawed Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr with money, training and logistical support for his violent campaign against U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq, The Post has learned.

U.S. and Israeli intelligence officials said last night there is evidence that Iran's Revolutionary Guards, the security services loyal to Iran's hard-line religious leader Ayatollah al Khameini, have funneled as much as $80 million into Shiite charities established by al-Sadr's influential family that have been diverted to fund his fanatic al-Mahdi militia.

Intelligence sources also said operatives from the Lebanese Hezbollah, a Shiite terror group created by Iran, have trained 800 to 1,200 al-Mahdi fighters in guerrilla warfare and terrorist techniques at three camps in Iran near the Iraq border.

Al-Sadr's group is also believed to have been recently provided with 800 satellite phones and new radio broadcasting equipment by diplomats at the Iranian Embassy in Baghdad, sources told The Post.

Al-Sadr's fanatics, drawn from poor Shiite urban slums in Iraq, have been battling U.S. forces throughout the week and took control of the cities of Kufa, Kut and most of Najaf.

Bush administration officials said the strength of al-Sadr's rag-tag al-Mahdi militia took U.S. military commanders by surprise and that intelligence detailing active support from Iran and Hezbollah for his violent uprising has been a simmering issue within the administration.



Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said in an interview with WNIS-AM Tuesday that al-Sadr "is reputed to have connections with Iran."


Source
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2004 10:40 am
Brand X, we taught the word about proxy fighters. See the book review above.
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sumac
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2004 11:06 am
I would like to see that story re: Iran confirmed by a little more reputable organization than the NY Post. I'll go looking.
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2004 11:28 am
NY Post story has not been run by AP, Reuters, or NYTimes.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2004 11:41 am
genius commentary

KILL THE TERRORIST PERPETRATORS AND THEY WILL PERPERTRATE LESS.

BUT KILL THE TERRORIST PERPETRATORS AND BREED MORE PERPETRATORS.

SO LET'S SIT ON OUR HANDS.

BUSH IS INCOMPETENT.

BUT KERRY IS???


KILL THE NAZI & SHINTOIST PERPETRATORS AND THEY WILL PERPERTRATE LESS.

BUT KILL THE NAZI & SHINTOIST PERPETRATORS AND BREED MORE PERPETRATORS.

SO WE SHOULD HAVE SAT ON OUR HANDS.

ROOSEVELT WAS INCOMPETENT.

BUT WILLKIE WAS???


But the west won wwii anyway.

Will the west win wwiii anyway?
0 Replies
 
 

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