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THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ VI

 
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2004 02:40 am
It is a funny picture and the commentary is even funnier. Blowing up the picture does show that it's fake, but I laughed like hell anyway.
0 Replies
 
pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2004 03:57 am
Iraq
I just read that the troops will be in Iraq until 2005. In June the attempt will be to bring in even more troops for the transition. Unless a major event occurs, such as a massive attack or bombing of a major facilitly, the transition will take place. Also, that there are plans for an Embassy, the largest, around 3K personnel, aside from the one in Egypt.

All the debates about the reasons for being there are a waste of time. The fact is that the US is there and will be until 2005 and most likely 'till 2015 even if the Dems win the election, which is highly doubtful.

Whether the US can stem of a civil war there, which I certainly feel is coming, is another question. Not much reconstruction will be accomplished if there is a civil war. The present Admin. will not withrdraw troops no matter what the oposition is by Iraqies. The political fallout would be too great.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2004 07:11 am
Do a google news search for 'troop deployment' and you will find that quite a few troops are getting the call. I read just recently that th number of troops on the ground in Iraq alone are over 140000 and climbing ......
Civil war is there as we speak, if not for Sistani it would be widespread.

It (the war) is no longer about oil. It now is about two elections, theirs and ours, and the outcome of one will predestine the other in determining the fate of peace worldwide.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2004 07:19 am
Quote:
[...]

Source and continuation.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2004 08:41 am
geli said
Quote:

It (the war) is no longer about oil. It now is about two elections,

It was always about oil Geli, just moved from centre stage for the moment. Its going to be 2 years until the oil comes properly on stream anyway.

Meanwhile Tony Blair out in Iraq talking to British troops actually talked about Saddam's weapons of mass distraction. See it on Andrew Marr's report.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3366525.stm

I think its called a Freudian slip...or in Tony's case a fraudulent slip.

I would love to ask Mr Blair a few questions

Question What are we doing here Tony?
Tony Blair. Looking for Saddam's weapons of mass distrac...truction.
But we've looked ever so hard and we can't find any
well keep looking, you never know what might turn up
But its hot and dirty here
You're paid to get hot and dirty
Aren't we supposed to be building the new Iraq with lots of freedom and democracy and stuff?
No. Legally you are here to disarm Saddam by force.
But Saddam is in jail.
That's not the point, you must continue in your search until WMD are found
You're making a fool out of us - keep going on about WMD
I'm perfectly well aware of that. But at least you're not being blown to bits every 5 minutes like the Americans.
They've not found any WMD either.
The Americans are here for quite different reasons. They came here to do some preventative regime changing, to stop Iraq ever becoming so strong that it gave American children nightmares.
When can we go home?
Not until George gets his second term and pronounces all children sleeping soundly.
Can we have a beer then?
Sorry its a dry country, we wouldn't want to upset our hosts would we? You can have a beer when you get home. Now thats enough from me, back to to the jolly old search lads. Don't forget that WMD looks nothing like that written in Arabic. (grins)
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2004 08:49 am
Seems that petrol (gas) is very rare in Iraq:

The Coalition Provisional Authority recently imposed 30-litre quotas, and limited drivers to buying fuel only one day in two. Iraq, with the world's second biggest oil reserves, is now importing fuel.

And thus we have a black market, where some Iraquis sell petrol for 6,25 Dollar/20 liter (official price 20 dinar/ltr= ~ 1 cent).

And this under the eyes of the uS-army:
http://www.dna.fr/photos/20040104_DNA018426.jpg
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2004 08:53 am
Oil oil everywhere but not a drop to ... fight a war???
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2004 11:23 pm
Quote:


Source
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Jan, 2004 11:45 pm
All Clinton's fault ...

Quote:
President wants Senate to hurry with new anti-terrorism laws
July 30, 1996
Web posted at: 8:40 p.m. EDT

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Clinton urged Congress Tuesday to act swiftly in developing anti-terrorism legislation before its August recess. (1.6 MB AIFF or WAV sound)

"We need to keep this country together right now. We need to focus on this terrorism issue," Clinton said during a White House news conference.

But while the president pushed for quick legislation, Republican lawmakers hardened their stance against some of the proposed anti-terrorism measures.

Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott, R-Mississippi, doubted that the Senate would rush to action before they recess this weekend. The Senate needs to study all the options, he said, and trying to get it done in the next three days would be tough.

One key GOP senator was more critical, calling a proposed study of chemical markers in explosives "a phony issue."
Taggants value disputed

Clinton said he knew there was Republican opposition to his proposal on explosive taggants, but it should not be allowed to block the provisions on which both parties agree.

"What I urge them to do is to be explicit about their disagreement, but don't let it overcome the areas of agreement," he said.

The president emphasized coming to terms on specific areas of disagreement would help move the legislation along. The president stressed it's important to get the legislation out before the weekend's recess, especially following the bombing of Centennial Olympic Park and the crash of TWA Flight 800.

"The most important thing right now is that they get the best, strongest bill they can out -- that they give us as much help as they can," he said.
Hatch blasts 'phony' issues

Republican leaders earlier met with White House Chief of Staff Leon Panetta for about an hour in response to the president's call for "the very best ideas" for fighting terrorism.

Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, emerged from the meeting and said, "These are very controversial provisions that the White House wants. Some they're not going to get."

Hatch called Clinton's proposed study of taggants -- chemical markers in explosives that could help track terrorists -- "a phony issue."

"If they want to, they can study the thing" already, Hatch asserted. He also said he had some problems with the president's proposals to expand wiretapping.

Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle, D-South Dakota, said it is a mistake if Congress leaves town without addressing anti-terrorism legislation. Daschle is expected to hold a special meeting on the matter Wednesday with Congressional leaders.


Source
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2004 07:38 am
Quote:

DS 05/01/04

Can the US keep Iraqi Shiites happy for long?

British officials publicly worried recently that the United States-led coalition occupying Iraq had only about a year before the Shiites of Iraq turned against it.
Shiites, the majority in the country, so far have been more welcoming of the coalition military and civilian presence than have the Sunni Arabs. But the Shiite community, which is more religious than most outside observers had anticipated, is deeply ambivalent about the occupation. Like most Iraqis, Shiites dislike the idea of occupation, but most also want the security provided by coalition troops, at least for now. If very many Shiites turn hostile, they might begin listening to radical voices. This would make Iraq ungovernable for the coalition.
Tensions have arisen with Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani, the pre-eminent Shiite religious authority, over the procedure for drafting a new constitution. A July 1 fatwa, or legal ruling, by Sistani rejected the US's original plan, under which the US-appointed Governing Council (GC) would have chosen a committee to draft the constitution.

The fatwa stated that "general elections must be held so that all eligible Iraqis can choose someone to represent them at the constitutional convention that will draft the constitution." The pronouncement by Sistani, who has enormous moral authority among mainstream Shiites, convinced the Shiite members of the Governing Council to insist on this way of proceeding. The Kurds, who fear the tyranny of the Shiite majority, want an appointed committee to do the drafting. This issue has paralyzed the council.
Concerns that a lengthy and contentious constitution drafting process could cause friction with the Shiite community appear to have been among the factors leading the US to significantly revise its plan for handing over civilian power to the Iraqis. The new plan, to which the US civilian administrator, Paul Bremer, and the GC agreed on Nov. 15, calls for a newly formed provisional assembly to form a government that will assume civil power by June 2004 and hold elections for drafters of a constitution by March 2005. National elections would be held under the new constitution by the end of 2005.

This plan may not fully satisfy Sistani and his followers, however. They may object that elections for the provisional assembly will not be truly democratic, since the electors will be local notables and tribal chieftains chosen in a process supervised by the US. Already, in a little-noticed fatwa issued on Oct. 6, Sistani's office said the Governing Council was illegitimate because it has been recognized neither by the Najaf religious authorities nor by a popular election.
The coalition's relations with the young firebrand Shiite preacher, Moqtada al-Sadr, are also prickly. As many as a third of Shiites, especially those living in the teeming ghettos of Baghdad and Basra, may sympathize with Sadr. He has called repeatedly for an immediate US withdrawal, and his lieutenants in mosques throughout the country criticize the Americans as corrupters of morals and as neocolonial oppressors.
Sadr and his lieutenants have staged several anti-American demonstrations in Baghdad and Basra, ranging in size from a few hundred to five and perhaps 10,000 people. Sadrists, as his followers are known, played a role in whipping up mobs against the British in Basra last August, and coalition troops clashed with Sadr's militias in eastern Baghdad and Karbala on Oct. 9 and 16, respectively. When those clashes resulted in the deaths of US servicemen, the US military considered arresting Sadr.

Instead, he appears to have been threatened and perhaps also bribed. He issued a statement in early November praising the US for removing Saddam Hussein (who had killed his father), and calling for cooperation with the coalition. The US cannot count on this conversion to moderation to last, however, since it is clearly rooted in pragmatism. Radicalized Shiites might swell the ranks of Sadr's followers and stage massive urban demonstrations of the sort initiated by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini against the shah in Iran in 1978 and 1979. This would very likely trump the US. If the US left hundreds of thousands of demonstrators alone, it would be ceding control over that social space to them. If the US tried to control civilian crowds with force, trouble would escalate.
It remains to be seen whether the US's planned transition to Iraqi sovereignty in June 2004 can mollify both Sistani and Sadr. Both have welcomed the move, but problems remain. The date for a handoff of civil authority is farther away than most Iraqis would like, and it could slide.

The transfer of sovereignty will not necessarily end the large coalition military presence in the country, and many Shiites may lose patience with it.
Iran's hard-liners, who have condemned the US presence, have little authority in Iraq at present. However, that could change if the Iraqi public becomes deeply unhappy with the Americans. The US is walking a political tightrope, and may have to make further concessions to keep the Shiites happy.

Juan Cole is professor of modern Middle East and South Asian history at the University of Michigan and author of Sacred Space and Holy War (IB Tauris, 2002). This is a revised version of an article reprinted with permission from the Arab Reform Bulletin #5 (November 2003) (http://www.ceip.org/ArabReform) © 2003, Carnegie



Source
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2004 01:27 pm
Two things I have to say about the below ..

1. Yeh - good that they got acted on (demoted, dismissed) - one could try to be trustful and interpret it as meaning that if US soldiers really go over the line, they'll be stopped.

2. Buuuuutt ... this is baaad. It's not just a slap too much - it's torture. If stuff is getting this much out of hand ... if the first we hear about mistreatments is of mistreatment this bad ... if this is considered reason to demote & dismiss & report in the press ... how much stuff that falls just short of this is, then, going on, and not being censured in this way?

It's possible that this was just a very extreme case, that went far beyond anything else that happened, and that's why we haven't heard much about the army command clamping down on mistreatment before. But I dont consider that very likely. I'm personally guessing that it is evidence of a swell of cases not quite this bad (tip of the iceberg), and that this report merely means that it's this far out, apparently, that the army command draws the line ... and that would be pretty scary.

Or in short, how to create new embittered guerrilla fighters, lesson #3 ...

Quote:
3 soldiers discharged for prisoner abuse
Detainees in Iraq were repeatedly kicked, miitary says


The Associated Press
Updated: 9:08 a.m. ET Jan. 05, 2004

KUWAIT CITY - The U.S. Army discharged three soldiers for abusing prisoners at a detention center in Iraq, a U.S. military spokesman said Monday.

The three soldiers, all from Pennsylvania, were scheduled to face court martials this month but opted instead to submit to a nonjudicial hearing, in which their conduct was judged by a commander without a jury, Lt. Col. Vic Harris said.

Brig. Gen. Ennis Whitehead III, the acting commander of the 143d Transportation Command, found the three soldiers had maltreated prisoners at Camp Bucca, southern Iraq, on May 12. He demoted two of the soldiers and ordered that all three forfeit their salaries for two months. All three were also discharged.

The general found that Master Sgt. Lisa Marie Girman, 35, of Hazelton, Pa. knocked a prisoner to the ground, “repeatedly kicking him in the groin, abdomen, and head, and encouraging her subordinate soldiers to do the same,” Harris said.

Girman received an “other-than-honorable conditions” discharge.

Staff Sgt. Scott A. McKenzie, 38, of Clearfield, Pa., was found to have dragged a prisoner by his shoulders and then to have held his legs apart “and encouraging others to kick him in the groin while other U.S. soldiers kicked him in the abdomen and head,” Harris said.

McKenzie was also found to have thrown the detainee face-down to the ground and have stepped on “his previously injured arm.”

Back in the U.S.

The general also found McKenzie made “a false sworn statement to a special agent of the U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Division.”

McKenzie was demoted to sergeant and received a “general, under honorable conditions” discharge.

Spc. Timothy F. Canjar, 21, of Moscow, Pa., was found to have made a false statement to the army’s criminal investigators and to have held a detainee’s legs apart “while others kicked him in the groin,” in addition to “violently twisting his previously injured arm and causing him to scream in pain.”

Canjar was demoted to private — a rank two lower than specialist — and received a “general, under honorable conditions” discharge, Harris said.

The findings were handed down at Camp Arifjan in Kuwait on Dec. 29. The three soldiers have now returned to the United States.

A fourth soldier was charged in the same case, but Sgt. Shawna Edmondson, 24, requested and received an “other-than-honorable” discharge from the military last year rather than face a court martial.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2004 01:31 pm
I am outraged they were not court-matialled and thrown in jail!
However, I am glad this made it into the media. With the current administration, I am surprised mention was made of it at all. On another board I play at, this has been discuseed, with the far right praising them, and making Rambo like noises. Sigh. Confused
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2004 01:46 pm
hobitbob wrote:
I am outraged they were not court-matialled and thrown in jail!
Confused

I agree with Bob completely. Shocked Crime needs to be addressed as crime.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2004 01:59 pm
Oh gods, I'm having chest pains! Shocked
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2004 02:06 pm
hobitbob wrote:
Oh gods, I'm having chest pains! Shocked
Some quick help
HERE
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2004 02:16 pm
The author of The Bad Seed also wrote a book entitled Company K, a fictionalized account of his experience as a Marine in the First World War. Several interviewers have stated, since his death, that he asserted the book is based on his personal experiences, but that he would not make that statement for the record. If that is true, then U.S. Marines gunned down German POW's during the very nasty fight for Belleau Wood.

The U.S. Coast Guard cutter Icarus forced a German U-boat to the surface off the outer banks of North Carolina in 1942. When the crew came out on deck to abandon the submarine, and many leapt into the water, Coast Guardsmen turned their machine guns on the defenseless sailors in the water--the testimony for this incident comes from Coast Guard sources.

This sort of thing has happened, and likely will happen, in any war. I say, lock 'em up, throw away the key--and make sure every GI, every Marine, every Sailor and every Airman knows about it. O'Bill is absolutely right, it is a crime.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2004 02:39 pm
I'm with hobit on this one; that it reach the media and they printed it. There's some hope yet..... maybe.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2004 06:32 pm
Quote:

Resistance
In Fedayeen's path, long term plans, unlikley organization
Iraq Today staff - 29-Dec-2003


BAGHDAD - When Saddam Hussein was finally captured in December, Fathel, a onetime leader of the Fedayeen and now a resistance leader, got a special message. The game has changed, he was told, and they had to change as well. "Our leaders ordered that we should meet and adapt ourselves to this new situation and to remove Iraqi people who were agents of the US," Fathel said. "They also told us that our work must be more organized and more secret because there are spies among us. But we are still here and we are still hard at work."

Three weeks after Saddam Hussein was caught, the Iraqi resistance has remained as intractable as ever, even as the coalition stepped up an aggressive campaign to wipe out insurgents in Baghdad. Threats of a "Christmas Surprise" came true this week as a barrage of rockets, mortars and suicide bombings throughout the country left more than 10 US soldiers dead, countless Iraqis dead or injured and the general security situation still in jeopardy. The skies over Baghdad rumbled with explosions and artillery fire, most of it aimed at Coalition targets and several civilian targets. Rebels launched a series of synchronized rocket, mortar, gunfire and bomb attacks in Baghdad -- the most serious insurgent action since Saddam's capture, hitting the Sheraton Palace hotel in Baghdad on two occasions and the CPA's "Green Zone". Nobody was killed and the military dismissed the insurgent offensive as a "random and irresponsible" terrorist act.

In the mean time, the coalition went on the offensive with operation Iron Grip, launching a barrage on successive nights against suspected resistance targets in the south of Baghdad. Heavy machine gun fire, artillery and missile fire underscored a sense of a city still at war.

But as the barrage continued overhead, Fathel was undeterred as he sat comfortably at home. In a rare look into the Fedayeen command, the former ommander underscored a level of organization and planning that continues to drive the resistance. Much as political analysts and Coalition leaders themselves have warned, the resistance is not likely to ebb any time soon. The question today, however, is whether the resistance will in fact become even more intractable.

"The resistance will never end," he warned confidently.



Initial orders



A day before Baghdad fell last April, Fathel received clear unexpected orders from his superiors. "Send your family away and rent a house in the outskirts of Baghdad," he was told. The order came from a high level Baathi leader, thought to be was clear: a new stage in the war was to begin.

The Fedayeen leadership was told to lay low and quiet; their commanders would know where to find them, and messengers would travel back and forth relaying orders, advice and news. For months, now, they have been active, unleashing a deadly campaign intended to drive out the coalition and stop Iraqis from working with the foreign forces.

Two weeks after the fall of the regime, Fathel was ordered to head to Ramadi to meet Saddam Hussein, he thought. As it turned out, Saddam never showed. But the ragtag gang of onetime military leaders were told, however, that Saddam was well and that he encouraged all to lead the resistance against the US troops.

A week later, in another ad-hoc meeting, the commanders asked Fathel and his cohorts to be more organized. "They divided us into groups and told us that together these groups would make up what was called Mohammad's Second Army," Fathel said. "After that we carried out many plans and operations.

Fathel claims he was frequently ill from an unspecified infection and was often unable to take part in many of the operations. Eventually he was excused from day to day operations. But he remained involved nonetheless.

In June, Fathel received the next major order: he was to sell everything and in particular the cars, houses and lands that the government had given him and await new orders. "We were happy to do this and many of us had already sold our cars in the first months after the fall of Baghdad," he claims. With cash in hand, he waited for further word. Then one day it came--Fathel was ordered to head to Amman for yet another ajor meeting.



Amman Reunion



"When I went to Amman I was shocked by the numbers of my colleagues and friends from the Baath socialist party there, as well as the presence of many of the ex-security men," he admitted. "They told me that they had gone to Jordan after the fall of Baghdad and continued to prepare operations from there and had stayed in touch with Saddam's family, many of whom were now in Jordan."

Numerous former Baathis flooded Jordan's capital during the summer months, many of them with cash in hand ready to buy real estate and more. In ritzy Amman neighborhoods like Deir Ghbar-- literally translated Dusty Monastry--new buildings have risen in recent months fetching some of the highest prices in Amman.

The buildings are full of members of Saddam Hussein's former regime and their compatriots, including high ranking former Baathis either unknown to or not wanted by the Coalition. The most famous Iraqis in town, Saddam Hussein's daughters Raghad and Rana, are also getting on with life in a three-storey white stone guesthouse in the Royal Palace that used to belong to the late King Hussein.

Flush with money, gold and jewelry they brought with them from Iraq, the new émigrés are splashing money around. Whether at Amman's new Mecca Mall, or at luxury clothing and jewelry stores in flashy neighborhoods like Abdoun and Sweifieh, Iraqi exiles, with their slightly out of style fashions and decidedly Tikriti accents are making their dollars felt.

"Iraqis are keeping a lot of us in business these days," admited one Amman jeweler there last month. "It's dangerous there [in Iraq], so they're bringing their money to here."

But Fathel's trip would be far shorter than most of his Baathi cohorts'. He went back to Baghdad days later, where he has remained operating quietly.

"After I went back to Baghdad I had many further meetings with the Baath leaders and they were all in good spirits," he claims. Those spirits have remained high. But Fathel insists he has not been involved directly in attacks against US soldiers, but has only been hearing about.

Nonetheless Fathel describes an intricate resistance network that is more a series of bee colonies than a centrally controlled army. Messages are transferred by trusted messengers who know how to reach individual members.

The cells operate relatively independently and freely, so that the arrest or killing of one will not affect the others. But there are even far more secretive procedures that Fathel would not discuss. Ultimately, those secrets lie at the heart of the continued intractable resistance, for which military might still appears a losing strategy.





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Source
0 Replies
 
pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2004 07:40 pm
Somewhat amusing
"Nobody was killed and the military dismissed the insurgent offensive as a "random and irresponsible" terrorist act."

"random and irresponsible" terrorist act"?

The most amusing is the word "irresponsible".

In my view it may be better for the Iraqies if all resistence was placed on hold until the so-called elections and after the troop force numbers were reduced and then mount the insurgency.

The US plans to create one of the largest Embassies in the world in Iraq. I strongly feel that the US presence, especially the Multi-corps that it sponsors, will be in Iraq for the next 50 years.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2004 07:46 pm
pistoff, Don't forget that this administration told us and everybody in the world that we're not going to stay in Iraq a day longer than necessary. Fifty years, heh? Make that fifty years and one day.
0 Replies
 
 

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