THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ VI

Well, you would be right about the pre 2002 inspections. As far as the 2002 inspections, you are wrong.

And you didn't know this was happeneing before? I did, and so did most of the rest of the world. We also knew about punitive rape and mutilations.

Maybe [Saddam continuing to rule] would have led to increased aid, and to closer scruitiny on his practices by the world. We will never know, will we?

The US and the far right just didn't seem to care until the WMD excuse fizzled.

Nope, support for Pakistan, and many of the totalitarian regimes in the former Soviet Union are purely products of post cold war politics. Nice try at misdirection, though. In fact, support of Azerbaijan, Uzbekhistan,and Pakistan are Bush innovations.

See above.

We should find out what it is [Muslim fanatics] want us to do or stop doing that would make them relent.

Why should a Christian fundamentalist blow himself up in a suicide bombing, he's got satellite controlled bombs that he can unleash from miles and miles away with a click of a button from his climate controlled cockpit.

They say they want us to abandon our culture for their culture or die. So which would you have us do?

Pentagon officials have confirmed that Guantanamo detainees may still be kept in detention, even if they are found not guilty by a military tribunal.
They say detainees could be kept prisoner if they are considered a security risk.

If found guilty, they could also be held beyond any sentence laid down by the tribunal.

The Pentagon this week laid the first charges against two foreign detainees held in Guantanamo Bay.

'Not common sense'

The US military officials argue that there are two processes underway.

Detainees are being held because they are suspected of being enemy combatants in an ongoing war.

Separately, some may be put before tribunals accused of specific war crimes or other offences.

But the officials say it would not be common sense to release detainees after the tribunals if the so-called war on terrorism were still under way and it was thought they might launch new attacks on US interests.

The officials add that anyone convicted of war crimes would have to serve out their sentences, even if the other detainees were released because the war was deemed to be over.

All of this looks like further evidence of how difficult the issue of detainees is.

The Ninth International Conference of American States

AGREES:

To adopt the following

AMERICAN DECLARATION OF THE RIGHTS AND DUTIES OF MAN

Preamble

All men are born free and equal, in dignity and in rights, and, being endowed by nature with reason and conscience, they should conduct themselves as brothers one to another.

ican you ask

Quote:

They say they want us to abandon our culture for their culture or die. So which would you have us do?

Do they? If you actually look at bin Ladens demands, point 1 is that we, or rather the US abandons its military presence in Saudi Arabia. They want a fundamentalist wahhabist Islamic regime in Saudi Arabia, before they want one in the USA or Britain.

You say that they say that they want....still with this? us to abandon our culture. But that pre supposes they think that we have a culture. They dont. They want to give us philistines (apologies to any Philistinians) the benefit of their sublime Islamic culture over the state of moral decay and filth in which we live. Its all crap I agree, but that's the way they think.

If as you say their only objective is to kill or subdue us, then there is no dialogue possible. We have to identify islolate contain and if necessary kill them before they kill us.

But what if, and I agree this is a big what if, bin Laden would call off the jihad if the "zionist crusaders" withdrew from Saudi Arabia, and the Palestinian people were allowed their own state? (This latter point is of course the stated objective of the current American administration so we can't be that far apart). It would be a shame if we were to endure for decades an escalating cycle of violence just because we never realised the other side would stop if only we made relatively easy concessions.

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FAS Note: The following statement from Usama bin Laden and his associates purports to be a religious ruling (fatwa) requiring the killing of Americans, both civilian and military. This document is part of the evidence that links the bin Laden network to the September 11 terrorist attacks on New York and Washington. The original Arabic text of this statement may be found here.
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Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders
World Islamic Front Statement

23 February 1998

Shaykh Usamah Bin-Muhammad Bin-Ladin
Ayman al-Zawahiri, amir of the Jihad Group in Egypt
Abu-Yasir Rifa'i Ahmad Taha, Egyptian Islamic Group
Shaykh Mir Hamzah, secretary of the Jamiat-ul-Ulema-e-Pakistan
Fazlur Rahman, amir of the Jihad Movement in Bangladesh

[emphasis in bold has been added by me]

Praise be to Allah, who revealed the Book, controls the clouds, defeats factionalism, and says in His Book: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)"; and peace be upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, who said: I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but Allah is worshipped, Allah who put my livelihood under the shadow of my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders.

The Arabian Peninsula has never -- since Allah made it flat, created its desert, and encircled it with seas -- been stormed by any forces like the crusader armies spreading in it like locusts, eating its riches and wiping out its plantations. All this is happening at a time in which nations are attacking Muslims like people fighting over a plate of food. In the light of the grave situation and the lack of support, we and you are obliged to discuss current events, and we should all agree on how to settle the matter.

No one argues today about three facts that are known to everyone; we will list them, in order to remind everyone:

First, for over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples.

If some people have in the past argued about the fact of the occupation, all the people of the Peninsula have now acknowledged it. The best proof of this is the Americans' continuing aggression against the Iraqi people using the Peninsula as a staging post, even though all its rulers are against their territories being used to that end, but they are helpless.

Second, despite the great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people by the crusader-Zionist alliance, and despite the huge number of those killed, which has exceeded 1 million... despite all this, the Americans are once against trying to repeat the horrific massacres, as though they are not content with the protracted blockade imposed after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation.

So here they come to annihilate what is left of this people and to humiliate their Muslim neighbors.

Third, if the Americans' aims behind these wars are religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there. The best proof of this is their eagerness to destroy Iraq, the strongest neighboring Arab state, and their endeavor to fragment all the states of the region such as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Sudan into paper statelets and through their disunion and weakness to guarantee Israel's survival and the continuation of the brutal crusade occupation of the Peninsula.

All these crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration of war on Allah, his messenger, and Muslims. And ulema have throughout Islamic history unanimously agreed that the jihad is an individual duty if the enemy destroys the Muslim countries. This was revealed by Imam Bin-Qadamah in "Al- Mughni," Imam al-Kisa'i in "Al-Bada'i," al-Qurtubi in his interpretation, and the shaykh of al-Islam in his books, where he said: "As for the fighting to repulse [an enemy], it is aimed at defending sanctity and religion, and it is a duty as agreed [by the ulema]. Nothing is more sacred than belief except repulsing an enemy who is attacking religion and life."

On that basis, and in compliance with Allah's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims:

The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah."

This is in addition to the words of Almighty Allah: "And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)? -- women and children, whose cry is: 'Our Lord, rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will help!'"

We -- with Allah's help -- call on every Muslim who believes in Allah and wishes to be rewarded to comply with Allah's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson.

Almighty Allah said: "O ye who believe, give your response to Allah and His Apostle, when He calleth you to that which will give you life. And know that Allah cometh between a man and his heart, and that it is He to whom ye shall all be gathered."

Almighty Allah also says: "O ye who believe, what is the matter with you, that when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling so heavily to the earth! Do ye prefer the life of this world to the hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For Allah hath power over all things."

Almighty Allah also says: "So lose no heart, nor fall into despair. For ye must gain mastery if ye are true in faith."

The former UN chief weapons inspector in Iraq, Richard Butler, says his phone calls at the United Nations were bugged during his tenure from 1997 to 1999.

He told Australian radio at least four UN Security Council members monitored his calls, and he would leave the UN building if taking a confidential call.

ABC Radio cited Australian intelligence sources as saying Hans Blix, the last weapons inspector, was also bugged.

Ex-UK minister Clare Short says the UK bugged UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan.

"Of course I was (bugged)," Richard Butler told ABC radio.

"I was well aware of it. How did I know? Because those who did it would come to me and show me the recordings that they had made on others to help me do my job disarming Iraq."

Mr Butler said he was bugged by the Americans, British, French and Russians.

"I knew it from other sources," he said. "I was utterly confident that I was bugged by at least four permanent members of the Security Council."

Hit back

He said that if he needed to make a private call to his contacts, he would leave the UN building in New York and either go to a busy cafe or walk in Central Park.

Meanwhile ABC reporter Andrew Fowler said he had been told by Australian intelligence contacts that Hans Blix - the UN's most recent weapons inspector in Iraq - was also tapped.

"That's what I'm told, specifically each time he entered Iraq, his phone was targeted and recorded and the transcripts were then made available to the United States, Australia, Canada, the UK and also New Zealand," he said.

The United Nations has already said that any bugging of UN offices would be illegal and should end immediately.

The organisation was responding to claims on Thursday by the former UK cabinet minister Clare Short that British intelligence monitored calls by UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan.

On Friday, Ms Short hit back after UK Prime Minister Tony Blair branded the claims "deeply irresponsible".

She denied putting the UK or its security services at risk by her revelations, and accused the prime minister of using "pompous" distraction tactics.

At his monthly news conference, Mr Blair insisted the UK security services acted in accordance with domestic and international law and in their country's best interests.