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THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ VI

 
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2004 08:51 am
Editorial from today's New York Times

Quote:


Blatham,
Yes. It appears, at this juncture, that the US, UN and Iraq are all firmly centered between a rock and a hard place. Or, as you might phrase it: sticky wicket, eh what?
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2004 09:17 am
http://www.ariaye.com/images/sistani.jpg





Jordanian-born Sistani as a younger man.
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2004 09:21 am
www.ariaye.com/dari/ sistani1.html
Source of photo above

He also has his own website:

www.sistani.org
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2004 09:29 am
The Religious Authority, Grand Ayatollah Sayyid Ali Husaini Sistani




Foreword:
For more than half a century, the school of the late Grand Ayatollah Imam Abul Qassim al-Khoee has been an undepletable spring that enriched Islamic thought and knowledge.
From his school graduated dozens of jurists, clergymen, and dignitaries who took it upon themselves to continue his ideological path which was full of achievements and sacrifices in the service of the faith, knowledge, and society.
Among those are outstanding professors of parochial schools, especially Holy Najaf and Qom. Some of them have attained the level of 'ijtiihad'- competence to deduce independent legal judgment enabling them to assume the office of supreme religious authority.
Others reached lofty levels qualifying them for shouldering the responsibilities of teaching and education. Most distinguished among those towering figures is His Eminence Grand Ayatullah as-Sayyid Ali al-Hussaini as-Seestani.
He ranks among the brightest, the most qualified and knowledgeable of Imam al-Khoee's former students. In the following account, we try to paint a picture of this meritorious cleric.

His Birth and Upbringing:
Grand Ayatollah Sayyid Ali Husaini Sistani was born on 9th Rabi Al-Awwal 1349 A.H. in the holy city of Mashhad. He was named Ali after his grandfather.
He was brought up into a family known for its religious background. He learned theological and rational sciences from many eminent and well-known religious scholars.
His father was named Sayyid Mohammad Baqir and his grandfather was the great 'Sayyid Ali' whose detailed biography has been brought in the book 'Tabaqaat Al-a'laam Al-Shia (Categories of Shia Scholars) (part 4 page 1432) by Aqa Bozorg Tehrani. He has mentioned that he was apprenticed to Late Ali Nahavandi in Najaf and to Mojadded Shirazi in Samarra and finally to Sayyid Ismaael Sadr. In 1308 A.H. he returned to Mashhad and therein he settled and gained reputation as the teacher of renowned scholars such as the great Jurisprudent, Mohammad Reza Aal Yasin (may Allah bless him).
In 1368 A.H. during the period of the Great Jurisprudent, Grand Ayatollah Sayyid Hussain Brojardi he shifted to the holy city of Qom where he attended Kharij lectures of Fiqh and Osoul (Jurisprudence & Fundamentals of Jurisprudence) given by prominent scholars of the Religious Seminary including Ayatollah Brojardi (may Allah bless him). He also attended Fiqh lectures of Grand Sayyid Kohkamari during whose time he achieved much erudity and experience in Fiqh as well in Rijal and Hadith sciences.
His wife and children lived in Isfahna during the Safavide period and his great grandfather Sayyid Mohammad, appointed as Shaikhul Islam by King Hussain of the Safavide dynasty in Sistan province. Later he traveled to Sistan where he and his children remained settled.
Sayyid Ali was the first of his grandsons to migrate to Mashhad. He lived in the Madresa of late Mohammad Baqir Sabsavari where he continued studying until he migrated to the holy city of Najaf for higher studies.
At the age of 5 His Eminence started learning the Holy Quran. A woman who was known as 'Mother of Aqaye Mudir' helped him learnt the Quran. He was then admitted in a religious center for reading, writing, and for learning basic mathematics and geography. He graduated from the center after he had learnt calligraphy from Mirza Ali Aqa Zalim.
In the beginning of 1360 he started studying basic Hawzah lessons. He finished reading a number of books namely, Sharh Alfia by Soyuti, Moghni by Ibn-e Hisham, Motawwal by Taftazani, Moqamaat Al-Tabriri and Sharh Al-Nizam. Of those who taught him at this level one was Nishabouri who was known as a man of letters. He studied Sharh Lome'ah and the book of Qawanin (Laws) with late Sayyid Ahmad Yazdi known as Nahang. He finished the Sath (level before Kharij Level) books such as Makasib, Rasaael and Kifaya with Shaikh Hashim who was one of the great scholars of his time. He also read a number of books on philosophy like Sharh Manzuma-e Sabsavari and Sharh Ishraq and Asfar of Sadrul Mutaallehin with Late Ayesi. He read Shawaqul Elhaam with late Shaikh Mujtaba Qazvini and attended late Allamah Mirza Mahdi Isfahani's lessons on divine teachings. Meanwhile, he attended Kharij lectures by late Mirza Mahdi Ashtiani and late Mirza Hashim Qazvini (may Allah bless them).
In late 1368 A.H. he migrated to Qom to accomplish his studies in Fiqh and Osoul. He was benefited by the two well-known scholars, Sayyid Hussain Tabatabaye and Grand Kohkamari. The first gave lectures in Fiqh (Jurisprudence and Osoul (Fundamentals of Jurisprudence) and the second gave lectures in Fiqh only.
During his stay in Qom he was corresponding with late Allamah Sayyid Bahbahani (the prominent scholar of Ahvaz province known as a follower of Hadi Tehrani's school of thought). Their correspondence dealt with issues related to Qibla. He did not accept views maintained by Hadi Tehrani. Therefore he corresponded with Sayyid Ali Bahbahani who appreciated his views and promised that he would see him from close on his visit to the holy shrine of Imam Reza (a.s.) in Mashhad.
In early 1371 A.H. His Eminence left Qom for Najaf Ashraf and reached Karbala on the occasion of Arbaeen (40th day) of Imam Husain (a.s.). On having arrived in Najaf, he began attending Ayatollah Khoei and Shaikh Husain Hilli's lectures in jurisprudence and fundamentals of jurisprudence for a considerably long time. Meanwhile, he attended lectures of other prominent scholars like Ayatollah Hakim and Ayatollah Shahroudi (may Allah bless them).
In 1380 A.H. Ayatollah Sistani traveled back to his hometown, the holy city of Mashhad, expecting to stay and settle in it. In the same year, he was awarded a permit by Imam Al-Khoee and another by Shaik Hilli, certifying that he had attained the level of (ijtihad)- deduction of legal judgment in matters of religion. He was also awarded a diploma by the distinguished traditionalist and scholar Shaikh Agha Bozorg Tahrani testifying to his skill in the science of "Rijal" biographies of 'hadith', prophetic traditions, narrators and that of 'hadith'.
Upon returning to Najaf Ashraf in 1381 he embarked on research and teaching jurisprudence as expounded by the great jurist Shaikh al-Ansari in his book "al-Makasib", He followed it with an exposition of al-Urwatul Wuthqa book by the jurist Sayyid Tabatabaye. He started giving lectures (externals) in fundamentals of jurisprudence in Sha'ban, 1384 A.H. He completed its 3rd course in 1411 A.H. (1990 A.D.). In 1418 A.H. he began teaching Kitab Al-E'tikaaf" after completing exposition on 'Kitab Al-Sawm' not so long ago. He is currently (Sha'baan 1423) teaching Kitab-ul-Zakat of Urwathul Wuthqa.
Some professors of Najaf center for theological studies (Hawza of Najaf) were quoted as saying that they advised the late Ayatollah Khoei to groom someone for the office of the supreme religious authority and the directorship of Najaf Seminary. Thus the choice fell on His Eminence, Grand Ayatollah Sistani for his merits, eligibility, knowledge, and impeccable character. Accordingly, he started leading the prayer in Imam al-Khoee's mosque, al-Khadra at his life time in 1408 and continued leading prayers until the mosque was closed in 1414.
For the first time in 1384, His Eminence traveled to Makkah for pilgrimage. Then in 1405 and in 1406 he traveled to Makkah for pilgrimage for a second and third time consecutively. He started giving lectures (externals) in fundamentals of jurisprudence in Sha'ban, 1384 A.H. He completed its 3rd course in 1411 A.H. (1990 A.D.) His lectures in both the subjects have been recorded by some of his students.

His Scientific Genius :
Ayatullah Sistani is one of a few students who had the degree of Ijtihad. He is known for his intelligence and plentiful researching activities in biographies. He is also well-acquainted with many theories on many scientific subjects of Hawzah. Ayatullah Sistani had been involved in scientific competition with martyr Muhammad Baqir Sadr. This had been certificated by the late Ayatullah Khou'i and also by `Allamah shaykh Husayn Hilli who both had confirmed his being a Mujtahid through two separate certification dated 1960, in which the two Ayatullahs had appreciated his personality and knowledge. It is worthy to say that up to that date, Ayatullah Khou'i had never certificated any of his students' knowledge or Ijtihad, except for Ayatullah Sistani and Ayatullah shaykh Ali Falsafi (an eminent `alim in the Hawzah of Mashhad. On the other hand, the famous `Allamah shaykh Agha Buzurgh Tehrani wrote a letter to Ayatullah Sistani in 1960 in which he eulogizing him for his intellectual talents on biography and hadith. This means that, our master, Ayatullah Sistani, had been granted his high scientific rank when he was only thirty-one years old.
His Methodology in Researching & Teaching :
Ayatullah Uzma Sistani has his own method of teaching which differs from other teachers and scholars. For example, his method in teaching
Usoul distinguishes with the following features:
a :. He speaks about the history of the research he is discussing, to know its fundamental sources which might be philosophical, like the issue of the simplicity of "mushtaqq" and its constructions. Or, they might be concerned with beliefs and policy, like the research of "ta`aadul and taraajeeh", in which he had explained that the difference of hadiths returns to intellectual clashes and the political circumstances of that time during which the Imams(a.s.) had lived.
b :. Ayatullah Sistani always connects between the thought of Hawzah and the contemporary civilizations. In his discussing the literal meaning and distinguishing between it and the highest meaning, and whether this difference is subjective or not; Ayatullah Sistani chooses the thought of al-Kifaya's author, who believes that the said difference is external. However, he himself builds his opinion on the a modern philosophical theory. And when he discusses the name of TIME, he deals with this subject according to a Western modern philosophical theory, which declares that TIME must be taken from PLACE, having the consequence of light and darkness. As to the form of imperative, Ayatullah Sistani discusses this matter depending on some sociologists' theories, which say that the reason behind dividing the REQUEST into: Order, Begging, and Asking, is the intercession of the requester in his Request, as whether it is of higher, equal or lower than the normal level.
c :. Ayatullah Sistani always looks after the principles in relation with Fiqh. He thinks that the hawzah students became bored because most of scholars are dealing with subjects on Usoul exaggeratedly, by repeating the others researches, instead of innovating new researches of their own. Thus, the students cannot be enticed with such unuseful and boring repetition.But fortunately, we do not find this situation in the lectures or lessons that are being held by Ayatullah sistani. He rather, discusses the subject from all its sides until he reaches a final logical conclusion.
d :. The Marriage to the Infidel: This is one of the disputatious rules about which the scholars have different opinions. They believe that it is a mere intellectual rule. But Ayatullah Sistani regards it as a part of the rule called "Idhtiraar" (obligation) which is a legal rule confirmed by many historical texts like "Anything which Allah has prohibited is lawful for whoever is driven to necessity". Or sometimes, he amplifies a rule by emphasizing what is seems to be important.
e :. His Social View About the Text: There are many Faqihs who deal literally with historical texts and remain stable upon their mere words and meanings, and do not try to move even one step forward. For instance, such faqihs depend on the apparent meaning of the prophetic hadith in which the Holy Prophet(s.a.) had prohibited the Muslims from eating the meat of domestic asses during the time of the battle of Khaybar, and believe that the asses' meat is prohibited, without objection. But, from the Ayatullah Sistani's point of view, faqihs must penetrate into the real meaning behind the text's words. He says that the Holy Prophet, and for sure, wanted to utilize the few number of asses the Muslims have in the best and most useful ways. One of those ways is that these asses must be kept alive to convey the arms and other important provision to the Muslim army, since they were the only means available for transportation. Thus, Ayatullah Sistani believes that the prohibition must have been temporary and must not be understood as absolute permanent one.
f :. Experience & Acquaintance: Ayatullah Uzma Sistani believes strongly that a faqih must be acquainted with Arabic literature, civilization, orations, poems, grammar,...etc., otherwise he wouldn't have enough ability to deal with any text, and so, he cannot distinguish this meaning from that. And, also a faqih must have enough knowledge about historical biographies and dignities, in order to be able to recognize any text in relation to that personality. Moreover, it is amazing to mention here, that Ayatullah Sistani, and in many occasions, disagrees with rules that are unanimously agreed by most of scholars. As an example, the ulama do not accept ibn al-Fadha'iri's criticism book in regard to some personalities, either, as they believe, because of the huge number of criticism he had against those personalities, or because they doubt his being the author of the book. While Ayatullah Sistani believes that ibn al-Fadha'iri is the real author of that book, and that he must be regarded more reliable than even Najjaashi, al-Shaykh, and others, for his criticism. Ayatullah Sistani always encourages the scholars to study the different copies of hadith, and distinguish between them to fetch the differences, and also study the biography of the narrators. He does agree with those who regard al-Sadouq more reliable (in narrating traditions) than al-Shaykh. He rather believes that al-Shaykh is trustworthy enough. However, Ayatullah Sistani and martyr Sadr both try to give a new formation to the subject.
Now, when Ayatullah Sistani discusses the rule of "ta`aadul and taraajeeh", he refers to the secret concealed inside this rule, which is the reason of the hadiths' difference. So, if the scholars attempt to point the reasons of the difference behind the legal texts, there will no problem at all. The same subject had been discussed by martyr Sadr, but he had dealt with it according to the absolute intellection, while Ayatullah Sistani gave many temporary and historical evidences, until he got important rules through which many disputes have been solved and removed. It is said that Ayatullah Sistani is using this method in the Fiqh lessons he is holding.
g :. Comparing between different schools: Commonly, many scholars try to constrict their researches to this religious school or that, but Ayatullah Sistani differs. He always compares his research or discussion with the two main centers of knowledge, namely the hawzah of Mashhad and the hawzah of Qum on the one hand, and the hawzah of Najaf on the other hand. For instance, he conveys the opinions of Mirza Mahdi Isfahani (one of the scholars of Mashhad), Boroujerdi (an `alim from Qum), and the opinions of the three researchers, Ayatullah Khou'i, and Shaykh Hasan Hilli (as scholars from Najaf).
The Sistani's method in Fiqh has a particular feature, some of which are related herebelow:
1) Comparing between the Fiqh of Shia and other Islamic sects' Fiqh.
2) Benefitting from the modern laws (like the Iraqi, Egyptian, and French laws) in some Fiqh subjects, especially when he discusses the subjects such as the Sale and the Choices.
3) Renewal in Discussing some Fiqh rules and according to this era's circumstances, contrary to some scholars who deal with the historical texts as they are without attempting to change any part of it as the conditions may request that.
Sistani's Personality :
Whoever associates with Ayatullah Sistani, he will notice how high spirituality he earns, the spirituality that Ahlul Bayt(a.s.) have always called to. This feature, indeed, has rendered him one of high rank's scholars and a true pious. However, the most remarkable characteristics of Ayatullah Sistani are the following:
a :. Equity and Respecting Others' Opinions: Because Ayatullah Sistani is fond of knowledge and always does his best to Reach the truth, and also because he respects everybody's opinion and every objective point, he keeps reading and researching all the time. He is very anxious to know others' thought and discover the target points of his mates. Many times and in many occasions we see him referring to one of the scholar's opinion even this scholar is not one of his masters, or he is not very known in the Hawzah, only because that opinion has an objective point (or points) of view.
b :. Discussing Subjects Politely: It is known among the scholars that subjects and on many fields are being discussed roughly in the Hawzah of Najaf. It is no doubt that such a manner may cultivate the students' knowledge and purify it from every incorrect understanding. However, the students quarrel about something unimportant, and thus, the same manner may be mere squabble. In this case, more precious time would be wasted in vain, and no one would reach the holy aim, which is certainty, for which he pays all that endeavor and exertion. On the other hand, we see Ayatullah Sistani avoids disputes and void argumentation, or disregarding others' opinions and conclusions. He always tries to use polite phrases, and always does his best to keep the scholars' respect and veneration. Another feature, is that Ayatullah Sistani used to repeat his speech and phrases that consist important points; but if he noticed a continuous arrogance and obstinacy from a student, he then prefers silence.
c :. Training Beside Education: Education is not only an official job through which a teacher may practise a routine work against his salary. Such a behaviour shall certainly deviate the teacher from the main target which is training his students. A teacher must regard his work as a heavenly mission which he must practise with love, care, and full responsibility. It is said that Ayatullah al-Hakim's high behaviours were Sistani's excellent model. He himself became a model of his master, the late Ayatullah Khou'i, and is treating his students exactly as the late Khou'i used to treat his students. Ayatullah Sistani, always encourages his students to ask and research, until they reach the truth. In the same time, he insists on respecting the scholars and `ulama.
d :. Piety: Sometimes, the hawzah undergoes problems or critical attitudes which, if they are not to be faced bravely, many facts that affect the principles of the Islamic religion shall be concealed. There is no doubt that all `ulama must stand with courage in front of these incorrect currents. But the same situation may rise because of personal enmity or competitions to reach a higher rank or hollow reputation. In this case, many `alims, such as Ayatullah Sistani, prefer to stand aloof instead of participating in this dilemma, as happened after the demise of Ayatullah Boroujerdi and Ayatullah al-Hakim. Ayatullah Sistani is very well-known for his humble and simplicity in lifeway. He earns ordinary house and furniture, and wears unexpensive garments. He does not care about fashion or modern mode.
e :. Sistani's Intellectual Works: Ayatullah Sistani is not a mere faqih; he is rather a well-educated personality. He is acquainted with most of contemporary knowledges and civilizations, and has modernized thoughts and opinions. Ayatullah Sistani is heedful of the international economic and political information. In one word, Ayatullah Sistani can be considered as a modern faqih with genuine principles.
The Religious Authority :
Some masters in Najaf Ashraf relate that, after the demise of Ayatollah Sayyid Nasrullah Mustanbit, many scholars had suggested on Ayatollah Khou'i that he should prepare the appropriate base by choosing a personality from the hawzah (of Najaf) so that the religious authority may remain alive and effective. His choice became correct and the choiced was Sayyid Sistani for his knowledge, good manner, stable policy, and many other virtues. Ayatollah Sistani then began to perform the prayers at the niche of Ayatollah Khou'i, and started studying in his school. Later on, he wrote a commentary on the Resaalah of Ayatollah Khou'i. After the death of Khou'i, Ayatollah Sistani was one of those six personalities who participated in the funeral and he himself performed the prayers on the late's body. After that, Sistani became the only marja` (religious authority). He began to send duties and salaries, and teaching in the same classroom of Ayatollah Khou'i (in Masjid Khadhra'); thus, his followers increased day after another, especially in Iraq, the Persian Gulf region, India,...etc.
Ayatollah Sistani has the highest rank among the mujtahids and scholars throughout the Islamic World, and especially in the hawzahs of Najaf Ashraf and Qom.
His works :
Ayatullah Sistani began teaching the Kharij stage on Fiqh, Usoul, and biography 34 years ago. He held many lectures about the book titled as "makaasib", and many subjects such as purity, prayers, judgment, khums, and some other rules on Fiqh like usury, Taqiyyah (precaution), and the rule known as "ilzam" (obligation). Sistani also taught the Usoul for three complete courses, some of which are ready for publication, like his research on the scientific roots (principles), "ta`adul and taraajeeh", some researches on Fiqh, some chapters about prayers, the rule of Taqiyyah and ilzam. Many eminent scholars, such as `Allamah shaykh Mahdi Murwaarid, `Allamah Sayyid Murtadha Al-Mohri, `Allamah Sayyid Habib Husaynan, `Allamah Sayyid Murtadha Isfahani, `Allamah Sayyid Ahmad Madadi, `Allamah Shaykh Baqir Irwaani, and many other teachers in the hawzah, have recorded his researches. During that, Ayatullah Sistani was busy in compiling important books and some treatises, in addition to what he had written on Fiqh and Usoul.
Hereunder, are some of Ayatullah Sistani's books and treatises:
with many other handwritten compilations and treatises on rules for the imitators.


His Works




Sistani's biography as posted on his website: www.sistani.org
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2004 09:50 am
Gel has pretty much posted all the Sistani info there is.
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2004 10:15 am
Well then. I'm glad.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2004 10:18 am
Kewl.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2004 03:00 pm
Rummy says al Qaeda is working in Iraq.
************
Rumsfeld: Al Qaeda Involved in Iraq Attacks
Sun Feb 22,11:40 AM ET Add Top Stories - Reuters to My Yahoo!


By Charles Aldinger

KUWAIT (Reuters) - Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, arriving on an unannounced visit to the Gulf, said on Sunday al Qaeda guerrillas were among insurgents launching deadly attacks in Iraq (news - web sites) to spark civil war there.

But he vowed democracy would take root in the unsettled country despite current "untidiness."

Rumsfeld flew to Kuwait on Iraq's southern border -- his fourth visit to the region since the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in March -- and said attempts by "terrorists" to thwart elections in Iraq would fail.

"They clearly are involved and active," the secretary responded when pressed on whether al Qaeda, blamed for devastating 2001 attacks on America, were involved in Iraq. Pentagon (news - web sites) officials said Friday they had no proof any of the several hundred foreigners held in Iraq were al Qaeda members.

"We have seen information that terrorists are trying to foment strife between the religious and ethnic groups" in Iraq, he said.

The secretary refused in an interview with reporters flying with him from Washington to predict when elections might be held following a scheduled U.S. turnover of authority to Iraqis on June 30. Paul Bremer, the U.S. administrator in Iraq, has said elections could be delayed for 15 months.

"You have the normal untidiness of democracy where people say this and people say that. They discuss and debate and argue, and that's a healthy thing," Rumsfeld said. "My guess is it will not be perfectly predictable, as most democracies are not."

"Paul Bremer is working that (an election plan) with the President (George W. Bush) and all of us," Rumsfeld said.

"It is going along about as one would expect. You've got a country that has no experience with democracy through the adult lifetime of many who are there."
************
Now that this administration has proven that al Qaeda is in Iraq, where there was none before, what kind of logic will be forthcoming.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2004 03:03 pm
Hey, guess what else is missing?

Remember all those billions of dollars that Saddam had stolen from his people and that we were going to recover and use in the rebuilding?
Can't find em. Nope. According to Friday's Wall Street Journal we got about 573 million dollars so far in the effort to find Saddam's billions, which as you know is not enough to run the Iraqi rebuild for a day, nor is enough to even pay for the effort to find the money.

No WMDs, and Now no money, honey.

Joe
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2004 03:58 pm
That's also far short of what our taxpayers are paying Halliburton to feed our soldiers in Iraq.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2004 04:45 pm
A Tragedy.

We don't deal with the problem.

We don't look for solutions.

We curse the problem.

We curse solutions.

We curse solvers.

We flee from the problem.

We blame Bush.

We dump Bush.

We pull out of Iraq.

We pull out of the Middle East.

We pull out of the rest of the World.

We pull out of our 215 year old experiment.

We pull out of life.

We blame the rich.

We applaud the poor.

We celebrate our envy.

We celebrate our failure.

We celebrate our mortality.

We worship death.

We make ourselves . . .

Well . . . at least we make the devil happy.

Hooray, we won . . . didn't we?
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2004 04:51 pm
Note to above poster: Drinking and posting is always a bad idea. Smile
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2004 04:54 pm
You mean there's somebody on A2K that doesn't drink and post?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2004 04:55 pm
hobitbob wrote:
Note to above poster: Drinking and posting is always a bad idea. Smile


Then don't do it anymore. Crying or Very sad
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2004 04:56 pm
I'm not the one who seems to have done so. Of course, I never stated that destroying someone's culture was a good thing, either! Confused
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2004 04:59 pm
hobitbob wrote:
I'm not the one who seems to have done so. Of course, I never stated that destroying someone's culture was a good thing, either! Confused


The first accuser is the first suspect.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2004 05:04 pm
I'm not going to waste my time searching for the quote, but it was when you were on your "pernicious coveting" binge. Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2004 05:05 pm
If, you are talking about a culture where women are treated worse than dogs, than I'm all for destroying it, once and for all. It would be a very "good thing".
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2004 05:07 pm
ogod, hey.....back to subject of this thread......please
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2004 05:12 pm
So, any doubts that Chalabi is going to be the next dictator?
What we said before does not matter/
Quote:
In a remarkably frank interview with the London 'Daily Telegraph', Chalabi said he was willing to take full responsibility for the INC's role in providing misleading intelligence and defectors to President George W. Bush, Congress and the U.S. public to persuade them that Hussein posed a serious threat to the United States that had to be dealt with urgently.

The Telegraph reported that Chalabi merely shrugged off accusations his group had deliberately misled the administration. ''We are heroes in error'', he said.

''As far as we're concerned, we've been entirely successful'', he told the newspaper. ''That tyrant Saddam is gone and the Americans are in Baghdad. What was said before is not important. The Bush administration is looking for a scapegoat. We're ready to fall on our swords if he wants''.

It was an amazing admission, and certain to fuel growing suspicions on Capitol Hill that Chalabi, whose INC received millions of dollars in taxpayer money over the past decade, effectively conspired with his supporters in and around the administration to take the United States to war on pretenses they knew, or had reason to know, were false.

Indeed, it now appears increasingly that defectors handled by the INC were sources for the most spectacular and detailed -- if completely unfounded -- information about Hussein's alleged WMD programs, not only to U.S. intelligence agencies, but also to U.S. mainstream media, especially the 'New York Times', according to a recent report in the New York 'Review of Books'.


Still on US payroll

Quote:
Unreliable group keeps U.S. support

INFORMERS GAVE FALSE IRAQ REPORTS

By Jonathan S. Landay, Warren P. Strobel and John Walcott

Knight Ridder

WASHINGTON - The Department of Defense is continuing to pay millions of dollars for information from the former Iraqi opposition group that produced some of the exaggerated and fabricated intelligence President Bush used to argue his case for war.

The Pentagon has set aside between $3 million and $4 million this year for the Information Collection Program of the Iraqi National Congress, or INC, led by Ahmed Chalabi, said two senior U.S. officials and a U.S. defense official.

They spoke on condition of anonymity because intelligence programs are classified.

The continuing support for the INC comes amid seven separate investigations into prewar intelligence that Iraq was hiding illicit weapons and had links to Al-Qaida and other terrorist groups. A probe by the Senate Intelligence Committee is examining the INC's role.

The decision not to shut off funding for the INC's information gathering effort could become another liability for Bush as the presidential campaign heats up and furthermore suggests that some within the administration are intent on securing a key role for Chalabi in Iraq's political future.

Chalabi, who built close ties to officials in Vice President Cheney's office and among top Pentagon officials, is on the Iraqi Governing Council, a body of 25 Iraqis installed by the United States to help administer the country following the ouster of Saddam Hussein last April.

The former businessman, who lobbied for years for a U.S.-backed military effort to topple Saddam, is publicly committed to making peace with Israel and providing bases in the heart of the oil-rich Middle East for use by U.S. forces fighting the war on terrorism.

The INC's Information Collection Program started in 2001 and was ``designed to collect, analyze and disseminate information'' from inside Iraq, according to a letter the group sent in June 2002 to the staff of the Senate Appropriations Committee.

Some of the INC's information alleged that Saddam was rebuilding his nuclear weapons program, which was destroyed by U.N. inspectors after the 1991 Persian Gulf War, and was stockpiling banned chemical and biological weapons, according to the letter.

The letter, a copy of which was obtained by Knight Ridder, said the information went directly to ``U.S. government recipients'' who included William Luti, a senior official in Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld's office, and John Hannah, a top national security aide to Cheney.

The letter appeared to contradict denials made last year by top Pentagon officials that they were receiving intelligence on Iraq that bypassed established channels and verification procedures. The INC also supplied information from its collection program to leading news organizations in the United States, Europe and the Middle East, according to the letter to the Senate committee staff.

The State Department and the CIA, which soured on Chalabi in the 1990s, viewed the INC's information as highly unreliable.


the ends always justify the means
Quote:


Perhaps we can just call him Saddam Junior?
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