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THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ VI

 
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2004 07:32 am
Bill- Thanks for linking to that speech. It is a lot to absorb, and I too, need to read it again. Its premise appears to codify some thoughts that have been whirling around in my head for some time.
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theollady
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2004 07:48 am
Rolling Eyes
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2004 08:26 am
Quote:
A bit too PNACish for me.



June 3, 1997

American foreign and defense policy is adrift. Conservatives have criticized the incoherent policies of the Clinton Administration. They have also resisted isolationist impulses from within their own ranks. But conservatives have not confidently advanced a strategic vision of America's role in the world. They have not set forth guiding principles for American foreign policy. They have allowed differences over tactics to obscure potential agreement on strategic objectives. And they have not fought for a defense budget that would maintain American security and advance American interests in the new century.

We aim to change this. We aim to make the case and rally support for American global leadership.

As the 20th century draws to a close, the United States stands as the world's preeminent power. Having led the West to victory in the Cold War, America faces an opportunity and a challenge: Does the United States have the vision to build upon the achievements of past decades? Does the United States have the resolve to shape a new century favorable to American principles and interests?

We are in danger of squandering the opportunity and failing the challenge. We are living off the capital -- both the military investments and the foreign policy achievements -- built up by past administrations. Cuts in foreign affairs and defense spending, inattention to the tools of statecraft, and inconstant leadership are making it increasingly difficult to sustain American influence around the world. And the promise of short-term commercial benefits threatens to override strategic considerations. As a consequence, we are jeopardizing the nation's ability to meet present threats and to deal with potentially greater challenges that lie ahead.

We seem to have forgotten the essential elements of the Reagan Administration's success: a military that is strong and ready to meet both present and future challenges; a foreign policy that boldly and purposefully promotes American principles abroad; and national leadership that accepts the United States' global responsibilities.

Of course, the United States must be prudent in how it exercises its power. But we cannot safely avoid the responsibilities of global leadership or the costs that are associated with its exercise. America has a vital role in maintaining peace and security in Europe, Asia, and the Middle East. If we shirk our responsibilities, we invite challenges to our fundamental interests. The history of the 20th century should have taught us that it is important to shape circumstances before crises emerge, and to meet threats before they become dire. The history of this century should have taught us to embrace the cause of American leadership.

Our aim is to remind Americans of these lessons and to draw their consequences for today. Here are four consequences:

• we need to increase defense spending significantly if we are to carry out our global
responsibilities today and modernize our armed forces for the future;

• we need to strengthen our ties to democratic allies and to challenge regimes hostile to our interests and values;

• we need to promote the cause of political and economic freedom abroad;

• we need to accept responsibility for America's unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles.

Such a Reaganite policy of military strength and moral clarity may not be fashionable today. But it is necessary if the United States is to build on the successes of this past century and to ensure our security and our greatness in the next.

Elliott Abrams Gary Bauer William J. Bennett Jeb Bush

Dick Cheney Eliot A. Cohen Midge Decter Paula Dobriansky Steve Forbes

Aaron Friedberg Francis Fukuyama Frank Gaffney Fred C. Ikle

Donald Kagan Zalmay Khalilzad I. Lewis Libby Norman Podhoretz

Dan Quayle Peter W. Rodman Stephen P. Rosen Henry S. Rowen

Donald Rumsfeld Vin Weber George Weigel Paul Wolfowitz







PNAC ........
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2004 11:24 am
theollady wrote:

Muslim, Arab,and Israeli nations are VERY different from the western world. There is an inherent religious code , I would say, almost BRANDED into their thinking- and they cannot change it overnight.
ALL Arab people learn from their youth up, that to destroy Zionism is to please Allah and be glorified. A belief that envelops their very soul.

I have to disagree here. Making sweeping generalizations like "all arabs" is intellectually lazy. This is the sort of thing that the Bushites wish people to believe. Having studied Islam, and having visited many "Muslim" nations (including the ones named Germany and the USA) I would have to say that you are dangerously wrong.

Quote:
This war goes back as far as Abraham, and George Bush and Tony Blair still have not REELED from the after affects the way they possibly may.

Bovine residue! The roots of this war have more to do with the Balfour decision than the exploits of a mythical archetypoe who may have lived in the 5th millenium BCE. This is sloppy thinking of the type so beloved of the fundys. Don't play into their delusions.

Quote:
No number of men, be they diplomats, politicians, policemen, soldiers, ministers, Heads of States and Kings... that the rest of the world sends in----- are going to change thousands of years of BELIEF AND COMMITTMENT.

Again, ridiculous. What "thousands of years of belief?" Islam, Judaism,and Christianity have comfortably co-existed in the past, and no doubt will continue to do so again. Most of the agression between Christianity and Islam or Judaism has come from the Christian side. Unlike Islam or Judaism, Christianity has never had a doctrine of tolerance. The current unrest in the Near East is more likely a product of Western colonial machinations in the period 1880-1950 than any semi-mythical "glorious past."
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2004 11:56 am
theollady wrote:

"Muslim, Arab,and Israeli nations are VERY different from the western world. There is an inherent religious code , I would say, almost BRANDED into their thinking- and they cannot change it overnight.
ALL Arab people learn from their youth up, that to destroy Zionism is to please Allah and be glorified. A belief that envelops their very soul."

I must whole-heargtedly disagree with this statement! I have Arab friends in Iran, Egypt, and Tanzania, and they are engineer, tour directors, and a physician. I'm really disappointed in the ollady making such a claim.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2004 12:15 pm
theollady wrote:
"Muslim, Arab,and Israeli nations are VERY different from the western world. There is an inherent religious code , I would say, almost BRANDED into their thinking- and they cannot change it overnight.
ALL Arab people learn from their youth up, that to destroy Zionism is to please Allah and be glorified. A belief that envelops their very soul."


I think it interesting to note that the people that are likely to follow this diatribe in the countries mentioned (Muslim, Arab,and Israeli nations) and in the US to boot, are noted to be "Conservatives" Exclamation

Fortunately in all instances, they are minorities within their own distinct group.
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theollady
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2004 12:35 pm
Confused
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2004 12:41 pm
Quote:
As far as stating how different they are from the western culture; I certainly am not out on a limb, as I read of these differences all the time.

Actually, Islamic culture is essentially a "Western culture." You seem to be reading very biased sources.

Quote:
And I did not mean there were not FINE people in EVERY culture.

"I don't hate ____, why, some of my best friends are ____!"

Quote:
But- in MY EDUCATED OPINION, cultured people do not call ones "fundys" and are not usually so acquainted with "bovine residue".

I apologize if the phrase "fundy" offends you. I didn't say you were one, I just admonished you not to play into their delusions. As for your unfamiliarity with "bovine residue," I am reminded of the famous story of Funakoshi Gichin, who becasue of class and status issues refused to ever utter the word "socks."
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2004 12:45 pm
theollady, There are also Arab christians and other religions. "ALL Arabs?"
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2004 01:02 pm
I didn't even mention "Christian", hmmmmmmm.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2004 01:18 pm
Indeed, "Arab" is an ethnic group, not a religion. I am an Arab who is a "recovering catholic." Smile I have to admit that here in the US "Arab" has become shorthand for "Muslim," and "terrorist." How sad.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2004 01:22 pm
The most populated Muslim country in the world is Indonesia - mixture of cultures. And, it is a hotbed...... Yet, I know and love a lot of Indonesians who wouldn't harm a fly. Gads.............

Think I'll just become biased and prejudiced using the misnomer - "human" Exclamation

Such as, "All them humans are the same they _____________ ." (Everyone fill in the blank as you wish!).
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2004 01:32 pm
Quote:
"All them humans are the same they _____________ ." (Everyone fill in the blank as you wish!).

Are really chewy and high in saturated fats?
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2004 01:32 pm
This just seemed to fit right in.....


Quote:
Baghdad Burning

... I'll meet you 'round the bend my friend, where hearts can heal and souls can mend...
Friday, February 20, 2004

Dumb and Dumber...
Ok, I just read this article in the New York Times and I had to share. Actually, someone sent it to me and they seem highly satisfied with it. The title is: Arabs in U.S. Raising Money to Back Bush and it is written by a Leslie Wayne who, apparently, knows very little about geography. I just love when articles like this find their way into the New York Times.

The article basically states that a substantial sum of the money supporting Bush's presidential campaign is coming from affluent Arab-Americans who support the war on Iraq. The fun part about the article is that it goes on and on about "Arab"-Americans- not Muslim-Americans or even Asian-Americans but specifies Arab-Americans giving you the impression that the article is going to be about people who were originally from Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Egypt, Libya, Yemen, the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, Oman, Qatar, Tunisia, Morocco, Palestine, Lebanon… you know- an Arab country where the national language is Arabic and the people are generally known as Arabs.

The article is dumb, but apparently the author thinks that the readers are even dumber. Of the 5 prominent "Arabs" the author gives as examples in the article (supporters of Bush), two are Iranian and the third is a Pakistani! Now this is highly amusing to an Arab because Pakistanis aren't Arabs and while Iran is our neighbor, Iranians are, generally speaking, not Arabs and I'm sure you can confirm that with Iranian bloggers…

One of the Iranian contributors is a Mr. Mori Hosseini who claims to know all about the region because he was born in Iran and lived there before moving to the US at the tender, prepubescent age of 13. He must be Iran's Chalabi- keep an eye on him. I predict he'll either be given contracts to build homes in Iraq or suddenly have important information on Iranian WMD he has been hiding since the age of 13.

I just wish all those prominent Arabs who supported the war- you know, the ones living in Washington and London who attend State dinners and parties at the White House holding silk handkerchiefs in one hand (to wipe away the tears for the 'homeland') and cocktails in the other hand- would pack their Louis Vuitton bags, and bring all that money they are contributing to that war-hungry imbecile in the White House to Iraq or Iran or wherever they wish the spread of democracy and help 'reconstruct' and 'develop' their own countries. One wonders with that $200,000 how many homes Mr.Hosseini could have rebuilt in Bam, for example… but then again, if they don't bomb Iran into the pre-industrial era, how will Mr.Hosseini get all those huge contracts in the future?


- posted by river @ 1:08 AM
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2004 01:39 pm
Gels, Excellent article. I sort of skimmed over that article, and didn't believe it - and concluded it was a sham like everything else about this administration and their politics.
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2004 01:40 pm
hobitbob wrote:
Quote:
"All them humans are the same they _____________ ." (Everyone fill in the blank as you wish!).

Are really chewy and high in saturated fats?


allways lift their leg when they fart.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2004 01:48 pm
Theollady: I see you have already been sufficiently chastised for your sweeping generalizations, so I'll simply answer to what you meant in the first place. 1,000 years of brainwashing is little different than 100 or 1,000,000 years. Suicidal fanatics can not be reasoned with... They must be eliminated. I'll shed no tears for people who will fight to the death the "right" to stone their women to death. It matters not, to me, how great their numbers might be. A crime against humanity is a crime against humanity regardless of how many people feel it is their "right". In many cases (most?); I believe that once people witness, experience and understand things like freedom, liberty and compassion; they too will desire it, not only for themselves, but for there loved ones as well. I don't think it matters if someone has been taught to be bloodthirsty from birth: Inside, they have to know it's wrong. How many "Saints" were mass-murderers before seeing the light? I believe that every human being on the planet knows the difference between right and wrong. Some just don't understand it… yet.
Those "on the fence" on the other hand; can be deterred. I've never been as eloquent or as articulate as this author when trying to pose this point, so I'm grateful that someone who is did. I've tried repeatedly to express my belief that the ability to help comes with an inherent responsibility to do so. Like no nation in history, the US has an overwhelming military power edge. If, like the author suggests, we use that power to grant basic human rights to every citizen of planet earth; who would still be willing to die to kill their brothers? Modern civilization eventually has to succeed in spreading itself to all the nations of the world. I believe this is the first Nation in history to have enough power to accomplish that feat. Certainly there will be some carnage in the process… but I submit; not as much as if continue to turn a blind eye to the plight of our fellow man. Why wait another generation or 2 or 10 while millions, even billions of people suffer unnecessarily because we choose not to help. I'd like to believe that once we convinced the world that world peace is our true objective; that other nations would join in the fight… And, that it would eventually become the universal goal of all mankind. As I have stated before; I'm not suggesting world domination like other would-be world leaders of the past. I'm suggesting world liberation! We have the money. We have the military might... I only wish we collectively had the desire to see it through.
Ps. I sure wish more of you would request the audio file mentioned in my signature line. Regardless of you political views; it will move you.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2004 01:52 pm
Of course, anyone who believes that the US has "world peace" in mind as its objective is quite likely in the running for the grand prize in the self-delusion olympics.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2004 01:58 pm
hobitbob wrote:
Of course, anyone who believes that the US has "world peace" in mind as its objective is quite likely in the running for the grand prize in the self-delusion olympics.
I don't wish to quarrel with you Bob... but I didn't say that. I'm not that self-delusional. I simply expressed my wishes.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2004 02:02 pm
It's also delusional to think that the five percent population of the US can help heal the sufferings of over half the world's population that lives on less than $1 a day. The ideal is nice, but that's as far as any idealist would/could convey. It's a logistical impossibility.
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