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THE US, THE UN AND IRAQ VI

 
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jun, 2004 03:22 pm
BillW wrote:
Please note that this column was written in October, 2002:

Quote:
A Tale of Two Enemies - The real connection between al-Qaida and Iraq.

...
By William Saletan
Posted Monday, October 7, 2002, at 8:35 PM PT
http://slate.msn.com/?id=2072067


This is an October 2002 speculation posted a year after the US invaded Afghanistan and six months before the US invaded Iraq.

I assume Mr. Saletan was unaware at the time he wrote his article that some of Osama's gang was cheating. They refused to remain in Afghanistan to be eradicated by our troops per pundit revelations, and instead were fleeing/relocating to other middle eastern countries including Iraq.
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jun, 2004 03:24 pm
And, where is your link oh mighty one Question
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jun, 2004 03:43 pm
BillW wrote:
And, where is your link oh mighty one Question


high, yes on occassion; mighty, no never; judgmental, frequently!

And where is Mr. Saletan's link from which he opined in his article oh omniscient one Question

And what is Mr. Saletan's opinion now oh omipresent one Question

And what is actually true oh infallible one Question

High-but-not-mighty here has previously, carefully presented here his alleged facts, references, links, and his probabilistic deductions and inductions from those facts.
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jun, 2004 03:47 pm
Just as I thought - a bag of wind <sigh> You are irrelevant Exclamation

Tomorrow belongs to me.....................
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jun, 2004 04:08 pm
Quote:

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=2582&page=0
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jun, 2004 04:16 pm
BillW wrote:
Just as I thought - a bag of wind <sigh> You are irrelevant Exclamation Tomorrow belongs to me.....................


It belongs to those who survive 'til tomorrow.
--------------------------------------------------
From: June 22, 2004 5:37 pm 754667
--------------------------------------------------
ican711nm wrote:
What does one generally mean when one concludes something is probably true? I think one means that one judges it better to act as if that something were true than to act if that something weren't true.

Facts shown in boldface black.
Nimh questions shown in boldface violet.
ican answers shown in boldface blue.

1. Saddam helped finance and equip Palestinian terrorists
- How does the fact that Saddam financed Palestinian terrorists imply that he "was secretly financing and equipping" Al Qaeda around the world"? The fact that Saddam helped finance and equip Palestinian Terrorists implies he probably financed other terrorists as well; that in turn implies that Al Qaeda was probably among those other terrorists that Saddam financed, because he had no reason not to help and lots of reason (e.g., hatred of Americans) to help Al Qaeda.

2. Osama declared Saddam an infidel prior to 9/11/2001 but did not terrorize Saddam (or any member of his government or any Iraqi citizen) as a consequence. - How does the assumption that al Qaeda "did not terrorize Saddam" mean Saddam must therefore have financed and equipped them? The fact that Osama declared Saddam an infidel but did not terrorize him or his people implies that Osama's declaration was probably made to mislead Americans into thinking Osama and Saddam had nothing to do with each other; this in turn implies that Saddam probably had lots to do with each other; that in turn implies that Saddam probably secretly helped Osama in some ways to murder Americans.

3. A Boeing 727 fuselage and training site was discovered in northern Iraq [The commission] concluded that there were contacts, but that they never led to anything. The fact that this training site existed in Iraq implies that Saddam probably helped aid Osama train some of his Al Qaeda people in Iraq; that in turn implies that Saddam probably helped Osama train some known murderers of Americans; that in turn implies these contacts probably amounted to something.

4. Saddam defrauded the UN Oil-for-Food Program and distributed $billions of Iraqi oil revenue to both secret and non-secret accounts all around the world. - How does the fact that Saddam defrauded the UN Oil-for-Food Program and siphoned off the loot to his secret accounts mean that he must have been financing Al Qaeda with it (as opposed to, say, stuff his own pockets with it, like every other dictator)? The fact that Saddam sent much of that revenue to secret accounts as well as non-secret accounts all around the world implies that he was probably using some of that money for purposes other than stuffing his own pockets; that in turn implies that he probably wanted those other purposes kept secret; that in turn implies that he was probably financing terrorist organizations including Al Qaeda.

5. Some members of Al Qaeda fled Afghanistan after the US entry into Afghanistan, and through Iran entered Iraq to join up with other Al Qaeda in Iraq who were there prior to the US entry into Afghanistan and Iraq. [The commission] concluded that there were contacts, but that they never led to anything. The fact that many Al Qaeda fled Afghanistan for Iraq after the US 10/2001 entry into Afghanistan and prior to the US 3/2003 entry into Iraq implies that Saddam probably provided them sanctuary in Iraq; that in turn implies that Osama and Saddam probably had working agreements in place prior to the US entry into Iraq; that in turn implies that Osama and Saddam probably were working together to murder Americans and that work probably did amount to something.


6. More Al Qaeda went into Iraq after the US entry into Iraq. - How does the fact that "More Al Qaeda went into Iraq after the US entry into Iraq" - i.e., when Saddam wasn't even in power anymore - imply that he must have been equipping them? The fact that more Al Qaeda went into Iraq after Saddam's removal implies that the Al Qaeda probably did that in their attempt to restore the Oil-for-Food revenues lost to them when Saddam was removed.

7. Al Qaeda members met with members of Saddam's government prior to 9/11/2001 [The commission] concluded that there were contacts, but that they never led to anything. The fact that Al Qaeda members met with members of Saddam's government prior to 9/11/2001 implies that their contacts were probably deliberate and productive and did amount to something.

8. Osama and Saddam hated Americans and did not willingly share intelligence with the US -- In other words, they tried to keep secrets from the US (we too late learned of when they succeeded). - How does the fact that "Saddam did not willingly share intelligence with the US"- he kept secrets from us! - mean that he must have been financing Al-Qaeda (Hint: most countries in the world do not willingly share intelligence with states they disagree with).? The fact that Osama and Saddam probably shared secrets with each other but not with other governments implies that Saddam was probably aiding Osama accomplish his objectives of murdering Americans; that in turn probably explains why this secrecy led the 9/11 Commission to falsely conclude that there were contacts, but that they never led to anything .

Again, what does one generally mean when one concludes something is probably true? I think one means that one judges it better to act as if that something were true than to act if that something weren't true.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jun, 2004 05:03 pm
blatham wrote:
Quote:
As for the Philippines' democracy, the United States can take little credit for what exists and some blame for what doesn't. The electoral machinery the United States designed in 1946 provided a democratic veneer beneath which a handful of families, allied to U.S. investors—and addicted to kickbacks—controlled the Philippine land, economy, and society. The tenuous system broke down in 1973 when Philippine politician Ferdinand Marcos had himself declared president for life. Marcos was finally overthrown in 1986, but even today Philippine democracy remains more dream than reality. ...


Yeah, we should have let the Phillipines remain with the Spanish about 100 years ago.. Then we all could criticize Spain instead of the US for their lack of perfection.

Look at Japan. We should have let their occupation and democritization to the Russians and/or Cinese for the same reason.

Look at Germany. We should have left their occupation and democritization to the French for the same reason.

Look at Italy. We should have left their occupation and democritization to the Romainians for the same reason.

Bah! Humbug!
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jun, 2004 07:16 pm
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jun, 2004 08:45 pm
ican

Whatever you do, don't read that full article from Foreign Policy!
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2004 12:10 am
ATTENTION! HUMOR/SATIRE/JUST FOR A GRINS


Quote:
Iraqi Power Eventually Transferred to Indiana Dairy Farmer
Jun 30 2004 by Jim Bauman
Our DeadBrain reporter followed the historic handover of power to the appointed, interim Iraqi officials. Here's his reportÂ…

After waving goodbye with one hand to Paul Bremer's plane while furtively giving him the finger with the other, Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi briefly paused to enjoy the newfound feeling of self-governance.

As Bremer's plane zigzagged across the dusty, hot sky to avoid an insurgent ground-to-air missile, Allawi frantically motioned for an aide to bring him a sheaf of papers. For a few seconds, he scribbled on the papers, and handed them to a courier. Later, DeadBrain discovered that that was the exact moment when Allawi transferred Iraqi sovereignty to Prime Minister Shavkat Mirziyayev of the Republic of Uzbekistan.

Upon opening the paper package from Allawi, Mirziyayev screamed and fainted. When he'd heard what had happened, Uzbekistani President Islom Karimov promptly transferred Iraqi sovereignty to Josefina Bilbao Mendoza, the Chilean Regional Intendant in charge of Easter Island.

Ms. Mendoza's reaction was one of panic. She ran pell-mell around the island, finally colliding headfirst with one of the giant stone monoliths, known as Moai. Finding Mendoza unconscious, her deputy immediately transferred power to "gone seriously mental" Robert Mugabe, President of Zimbabwe.

President Mugabe opened the Iraqi papers, read them, calmly drew a revolver from his holster, and shot the FedEx courier. "We have enough violence in this country. We don't need anymore," whispered Mugabe.

And, so it went, as power was transferred more times than all the lateral passes by the Marx Brothers during the college football game in the movie Horse Feathers. It went around the world several times, until Ned Blevins, a dairy farmer outside of Goshen, Indiana, received the paperwork.

Ned took it in stride and said, "I know a lot of important people have turned the job down, but if I don't do it, maybe no one would."

His plans for Iraq are calcium-fortified. "It could be the biggest dairy nation in the world with the right management," said Ned.

Riding into Baghdad on an armored Guernsey, Ned assured the locals that he wouldn't milk the crisis.
Source: DeadBrain
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2004 04:03 am
What annoys me more than anything else about the Iraq debacle is the stupidity of American leadership. If you are going to invade a country

dont underestimate the task
find out about the country
use enough troops on ground
understand its politics
remove the old regime thoroughly
dont give disparate resistance groups time to join together
give the people some hope
get the infrastructure up and running
show how things can be better
if you really have good intentions towards that country then SHOW it.


These are just a few things off the top of my head. Its so bloody obvious, but it seems beyond the understanding of Bush Rumsfeld Cheney and Rice.

Writing in today's Times, Simon Jenkins (a pro invasion columninst totally pissed off with the cut and run handover of "power") says:-

"This rule ranks among the most inept in the history of the West's global interventions. Mr Bremer leaves with some 10,000 Iraqis and 900 Westerners dead inside a year, a smashed administration and an economy wrecked by his "ground zero" economics. Oil and electricity production are still below what Saddam achieved under sanctions. Mr Bremer honestly thought that bombing and strafing residential areas was they way to establish consent and security. Obsessed with his own "force protection", he failed to train, equip and motivate a new police and security service after disbanding the old onew. Unprotected police still sit at roadsides while armoured convoys race past to keep the American occupiers supplied".

The so called neo cons, the same Christian Zionists who believe the expansion of Israel and the expulsion of the Palestinians is a prerequiste for the Second Coming, told Bush he could destroy the enemies of the Children of Israel, secure oil supplies and bring democracy to the middle east with a handful of troops and something Donald Rumsfeld was eager to explain was called "Full Spectrum Dominance". And Bush, his mental faculties clearly impaired having dumped coke for Christ, believed it.

And this man is about to be re-elected as President of the United States of America?
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2004 04:49 am
Just ask yourself this question:
'Could it be possible that we are training the insurgents faster than we are training the Iraqi police and army'?

DOH


Quote:

New Iraqi police celebrate their graduation
Time is GMT + 8 hours
Posted: 30 June 2004 1437 hrs

US probe finds Iraqi security forces plagued by mass desertions


WASHINGTON : Fledgling Iraqi security forces are "unready" to fight anti-government insurgents as their units remain inadequately trained, underequipped and some suffer from a desertion rate exceeding 80 percent, a US congressional probe has found.

The grim assessment came Tuesday, one day after NATO leaders agreed, at a summit in Istanbul, to help train the new Iraqi army that is expected to gradually increase its role in combating Islamist insurgents now that the country's sovereignty has been formally restored.

"Iraq's leaders are eager to assume responsibility for their own security, and that is our wish as well," an optimistic US President George W. Bush said before leaving the summit.

But as he flew from Istanbul to Washington, the General Accounting Office, the investigative arm of Congress, issued a terse report detailing massive morale, logistical and training problems plaguing Iraq's various security organizations.

"Iraqi security forces proved unready to take over security responsibility from the multinational force, as demonstrated by their collapse during April 2004," stated the document prepared for the heads of the international relations committees in the Senate and House of Representatives.

As many as 82 percent of personnel deserted from Iraqi Civil Defense Corps units deployed in Western Iraq and around the town of Fallujah last April, when anti-American guerrillas launched a spate of deadly strikes against coalition forces, congressional investigators found.

The desertion rate reached 49 percent in corps units deployed in and around Baghdad, while in towns like Baqubah, Tikrit, Karbala, Najaf and Kut, it stood at 30 percent.

Police squads hardly fared better. During just one week of April 17 to 23, the force lost 2,892 personnel because some of the officers were killed while others turned out to be rebel sympathizers or proved to be incompetent and had to be sent for retraining, according to the report.

The police forces in Fallujah, Najaf, Karbala and Kut collapsed, the document said.

In Fallujah, a whole battalion of the newly-reconstituted Iraqi army refused to support the US First Marine Expeditionary Force and engage the rebels.

- AFP

SOURCE







Quote:
US officers paid reluctant tribute to the sophistication of the dawn attack."It's the first time that they've had this level of coordination", said Major Brian Paxton.
In the Anbar province, west of the capital, 20 people were killed and 76 wounded around its main towns of Fallouja and Ramadi, the Health Ministry said. The US Marines said at least three police stations were attacked in Ramadi.
Quote from this source
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2004 07:24 am
Gelisgesti wrote:
Just ask yourself this question:
'Could it be possible that we are training the insurgents faster than we are training the Iraqi police and army'?

DOH


That is so good Cool longer too, better recruitment, bigger coalition, and bringing in the money. The Bush Regime does have successes.......
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2004 07:53 am
Thanks Steve

Simon Jenkins, what a star. And The Times is a right-wing newspaper too, for those in any doubt.

Still, I bet Bremer gets a Nobel Peace Prize nomination, as did Kissinger of Vietnam and Cambodia.
0 Replies
 
Jer
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2004 08:11 am
Ican,

I haven't been following this thread lately, but I just read your post with with many a "probably" and "implies" - I've never seen so many of occurrences of those two words in a post, ever. Were you kidding around there - or was that serious?
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2004 08:12 am
Quote:
I bet Bremer gets a Nobel Peace Prize nomination, as did Kissinger of Vietnam and Cambodia.


Wasn't it Tom Lehrer who pronounced irony to be dead, after this? Could be making a comeback.

Happy b****day btw, a German tells me
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2004 08:30 am
blatham wrote:
ican

Whatever you do, don't read that full article from Foreign Policy!


OK!

I bet that there are a huge number of valid criticisms that can be made of any person or nation. Another way of saying it is that the ratio of good actions to total actions for any person or nation is very small. So the way I rank people and nations is according to the relative good they do. The 228 year experiment called the United States of America has relatively speaking accomplished a great deal of good and has been successful in this respect. Assuming the present attempts by the extreme left and extreme right (not really different in substance only different in form) to replace that which works here by that which has failed throughout the history of mankind, this experiment started circa 1776 will continue to be as successful as it has been.

Dwelling on the failures of others is unfortunately a popular substitute for turning one's attention away from one's own failures. In the short run, trying to emulate the successes of others is harder and riskier work than castigating both the failures and successes of others. It leaves one with a temporary sense of superiority. That sense soon fades, however, when one starts suffering the consequences of that behavior. Blaming others for those consequences while popular does not diminish the misery such conduct fosters.

In short, sport, if the game of sink their boat succeeds, you will discover your boat is sunk as well.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2004 08:49 am
Quote:
The so called neo cons, the same Christian Zionists who believe the expansion of Israel and the expulsion of the Palestinians is a prerequiste for the Second Coming, told Bush he could destroy the enemies of the Children of Israel, secure oil supplies and bring democracy to the middle east with a handful of troops and something Donald Rumsfeld was eager to explain was called "Full Spectrum Dominance". And Bush, his mental faculties clearly impaired having dumped coke for Christ, believed it.


steve

May I seek to differentiate and clarify something in here for you?

You are conflating two quite different power groups active in this administration, the neocons and the extreme edge Christians. Where it suits either's purpose, they have co-operated in order to gain access to power and policy-making, but otherwise they are quite dissimilar. Also, we should note that they are not the only two power groups distinquishable in the administration (the corporate presence, with its own policy preferences, for example, or the extreme right idealogues such as Grover Norquist).

To get a good understanding of the neocons, this piece is exceptional... http://www.logosjournal.com/xenos.htm
Many of the key figures are former leftists, many are not Christians at all, and moreover, many are not theists but secularists.

The radical edge christian presence can be surveyed by a look at the Christian Coalition website with a secondary view to many of their links which can get even more radical.

A covering term for all these various groups is The New Right. They are well linked and extremely well organized and have been very well funded by the Coors family, the Olin foundation, Scaife, etc, plus by their own funding operations through mass mailing and manipulation of various non-profit loopholes, etc. For example, since the early eighties and just out of college, Norquist and Ralph Reed have been working together with funding from Coors and Olin, and later, from Scaife. Their notion or goal (this is from their own words) is to totally disempower, defund, and demoralize all opposition from the left so as to gain permanent control of the political and media machinery in the US. Early heros for these two fellas were Patton and Stalin (that's not a metaphor or a slur, that's true).
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2004 08:54 am
Quote:
In short, sport, if the game of sink their boat succeeds, you will discover your boat is sunk as well.


ican

The goal here is to PREVENT your boat from sinking.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jun, 2004 09:16 am
Thanks Blatham

Noted.

As one who never believed the wmd story, but then thought getting rid of Saddam was a good idea, then never bought into the counter terror argument, but thought building democracy was acceptable, I thought at least the Americans would actually WIN if they invaded. It gets me so mad. All pain no gain. For nothing. Idiots.
0 Replies
 
 

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