How many kinds of fossilized cells of animals have been found?

@farmerman,

I'll start looking for somewhere to do the thin slice and LOI.
Any thoughts where to start besides UTK or UTC?
What is normal cost LOI?
Can LOI be done with drilled out powder using glass cutting drill bit, instead of a chunk, so destruction won't be as great?

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@PHB,

PHB wrote:

I've gotten to highly respect you, Farmerman.
Problem, I honestly worry about you getting so close in this investigation of a "YEC thing." ( soft tissue, most anything.)
If through all the science stuff, it is found to be undeniable,...

What is it that you think is undeniable? That this is a fossilized brain, or that it came from a human in the Cretateous period?

Those are very different claims. What is it that you are expecting/hoping to discover here?

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@PHB,

PHB wrote:

All that I am talking about, is just simply the fact that such a thing could exist, and not even discussing YEC or evolution, because neither of them matter in the fact of just the reality or not of this specimen.

I think you are wandering off the mark here. It's one thing to talk about finding a fossilized brain, those aren't impossible, they've been found before.

It's quite another thing to imply that what you've got came from a time before the organism is know to have existed. That kind of talk gets you put into the crackpot category, and no single piece of evidence will ever alter the basic tenets of theories as well proven as evolution or geological timescales. The best you can hope for if you're trying to challenge existing theory with a single piece of evidence is to be left with a mystery. You would need multiple pieces of corroborative evidence to even make a dent in any major theory.

The only other thing that can happen is falsification (either of the origin date or the identity of the artifact itself).

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@rosborne979,

Easy answer.
Identity of specimen. I haven't said anything about timeframes here.
I am a straightforward person.
I am YEC.
That is my God given right.
Sorry, I know that makes your blood boil.
Now, down to science...I'm not here to spar with anybody, YEC or evolution.
Just the facts, that's all, of the identity.
If you think these things exist, maybe you should get in touch with UTK.

What Farmerman and I are discussing is silica permineralization of a human brain.
Unless it is the "Hindze brain" I don't know what you could be referring to.

Sorry Rosborn, I will not discuss YEC or evolution or timeframes here.
Farmerman and I both know where we are coming from on that issue.
No one is going to change their worldview here, and I am not attempting to change anyones worldview in this thread. Please take a little time to review the multiple posts from Farmerman and myself.
I do not enjoy being called names, and I am sure you do not either.
I welcome you to join in on the conversation as far as science of the specimen is concerned. Any non YEC or evolution interest is greatly appreciated, and i will certainly respond to it.
If it gets past the "proving what it is," the "pure science" of it, you guys can hash the rest of it out till the cows come home.

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@rosborne979,

Rosborne,
I re-read your post, and saw that you indeed, were not sure what I was talking about.
"Undeniable" was not meant to be a challenge to anything.
It simply meant "undeniable that it is a fossil, by way of Geologic proof"
It meant to imply nothing else.

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I ran across this site..

800 year old fossilized brain

http://scienceblogs.com/neurophilosophy/2010/03/fossilized_13th_century_brain.php

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@PHB,

PHB wrote:

Easy answer.
Identity of specimen. I haven't said anything about timeframes here.

That's perfectly fine. And frankly, it's perfectly fine if you want to claim anything else as well. I'm just pointing out that FM's reputation won't be sullied by investigating an artifact. That's just scientific curiosity. But I would hazard a guess that at no time in the future will FM be willing to stand behind any theory involving Jurassic humans.

Your earlier post seemed concerned about FM's reputation being associated with YEC's, and that's why I thought you were implying something deeper about the "specimen". My apologies if I misinterpreted your post.

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@parados,

All of these other "brains" have solid connections to an entire body while this one from Tennessee has none. It appears to be a real brain encased in a silica matrix. Im interested in the matrix. Whats its crystallography and genesis and is there any remaining organic material? Nowhere have I stated that I was seeking to justify some claim that the brain is or is not of some extreme geologic time. We have no other place on earth where that is so and there are way too many quetions on this specimen that need to be determined accurately. e all seem happy to be invested in following the data to its conclusion and to attempt some falsification of sevreal hypotheses.

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@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

It appears to be a real brain encased in a silica matrix.

From looking at the pictures, it appears to me to be a rock which looks superficially like a brain. Has there been any real evidence presented yet which shows this to be a rock formed of biological origin? (I've been too busy to follow the thread closely and weed out the speculation from the facts, so forgive me if I've missed something her. I guess I'm looking for a summary of what we KNOW so far).

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@farmerman,

Boris Hindze "Brain and a half" Moscow, app 1917, silica
Funded by museum, studied by a team of scientists, presented findings European Scientific Conference 1929.
Thought to be lost, WW2, but wasn't. Currently in a museum in Moscow.
It was discovered app 25 feet deep, during excavation.
Tilly Edinger studied Hindze report and either couldn't, wouldn't or didn't, support it.
She apparently supported all his scientific data, stating in scientific terms, it's accuracy.
She was just a believer that only casts and endocasts were possible, no matter how involved the data on these were.
Apparently, her career as what became known as "the founder of paleontology" also began in 1929.
I've suspected that the two are inter related.
It seems suspicious to me that she seemed so intrigued by it throughout, then at the very last, dismissed it as a fluke, just on her beliefs, and stating nothing scientific.
I have paid a German translator about 400.00 to interpret these documents from German.
This was done about a year and a half ago.
This info was important to the studies by Suzanne.

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@rosborne979,

Im going by the sace studies done by anatomists and a neurologist who id'd internal structures. Im not denying that it is a brain at all. I just question the means of the permineraliztion that left a fingerprint and aring imprint. Im not qualified to argue against the nwuraologist but I am qualifoied to evaluate its makeup and chemistry.
The T rex "soft tissue' sample from Hell Creek was encased within a silica matrix and had to be dissoved out using a combination of HFand Oxalic acid.
The "wahle brain" is not a brain IMHO because the fossil of whale brain cases show that there are significant sensory lobes and besides, the interiro of the sample shows a repository of clear quartz crystals probably indicating a chert cast of a rudist coral.

Im not in any "doubt mode" for the brain , since wed be in a pissing contest with noted physicians.

1 Reply

@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

Im going by the sace studies done by anatomists and a neurologist who id'd internal structures. Im not denying that it is a brain at all.

Ok. So it's a brain. Where does that take us next? Is it just curiosity to see how it was petrified/fossilized?

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@rosborne979,

I want to see what its masde of first. Whether its fossilized or a cast with silane or whether its a pseudomorph is where the doctors should have started first.

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@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

I want to see what its masde of first. Whether its fossilized or a cast with silane or whether its a pseudomorph is where the doctors should have started first.

Don't get me wrong, curiosity itself is a sufficient reason for investigating things, but is there any value to be learned from knowing its composition, given that we will probably never know where, or under what conditions, it formed?

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@rosborne979,

Quote:

but is there any value to be learned from knowing its composition, given that we will probably never know where, or under what conditions, it formed?

If we know its composition and its of a certain makeup, we may not need to know anything else.

1 Reply

@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

Quote:
but is there any value to be learned from knowing its composition, given that we will probably never know where, or under what conditions, it formed?
If we know its composition and its of a certain makeup, we may not need to know anything else.

Ok. I'm not sure what's implied by that, but I'll be interested to hear what you find out in the end.

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@rosborne979,

certain kinds of quartz are igneous, others sedimentary, finally there are quartz (silicas) that are human made. These can be told by the analyses Ive requested. Also A Loss on Ignition tells us how much organicmaterial is left.

1 Reply

@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

certain kinds of quartz are igneous, others sedimentary, finally there are quartz (silicas) that are human made.

When you say, "Human made", are you implying that it might have been made intentionally, or do you mean it might just be an accidental result of human activity?

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@rosborne979,

you have apparently not read any of my previous posts . I was ranting with bewildered about that very thing. Seems this brain has fingerprints and an impression made by a signet ring into the structure. That implies some handling post mortem and during a process of premineralization. Could this have been a chert nodule??. We are employing some means to investigate the above questions Ive had and PBH has been goodenough to undertake these tests . When all the data is in, we will be able to determine the "what is it really" question. Then we can next have an answer as to what is it chemically? Thats a lot

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@farmerman,

I'm still working with the "where to take it to, and how to do it" part.
I saw a page,
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:KDCLpHUx1HEJ:njaes.rutgers.edu/soiltestinglab/services.asp+loss+on+ignition+testing+cost&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com

Is this true, only 49.00 for LOI?
Also, can I send dust from drilling?
Also, is it my imagination, or what???..I have done miniscule drilling from the same hole in the back, 3 or 4 times, for different reasons.
It seems that the amount I extract is far less than the volumn of the space it comes from...almost like here is silica and air, but you can't see this by very close up inspection.
I don't know, I've just felt a little that this is odd, but I've had absolutely no explanation for it.
It could be my imagination???

2 Replies

How many kinds of fossilized cells of animals have been found?

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