Just When Was Chrst Made God?

neologist wrote:

Really,real; Frank is nitpicking. Give him his point and move on.

So...your side claims one thing....I challenge it...you cannot show that your contention is correct...

...and that makes me a nitpicker.

You people are pathetic!

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real life wrote:

El-Diablo wrote:
I think he meant god not christ. Christ simply mean messiah. That's not the argument. The argument was whether Jesus was/is God.

Maybe. We'll let him clarify his intent for sure. I appreciate your input.

If that is his point, it is still not correct. The Bible in many places identifies Jesus as God, and not just in Paul's writings.

Almost 700 years before Christ was born, Isaiah identified the child to be born as "the everlasting Father" Is 9:6

Other passages from the Old Testament that refer expressly to God are explicitly cited as referring to Jesus in the New Testament by writers before and after Paul.

Not maybe. The question and answer was whether or not Jesus was moshiach; the messiah. Even when Jesus claimed that he was, he did it in riddles and told one of his closest followers not to tell anyone else.
Your mistranslation of Isaiah out of context does not identify Jesus as anything.
The Christian desire to validate the claim that Jesus was G-d is nowhere to be found in either Jewish scriptures or, without tortuous machinations, in the gospels.
It is a much easier case to find the claim to divinity in the rest of the new testament, but even that, of course, can be interpreted differently.
But before the new testament? No, it is simply a matter of faith trying to uphold a pre-existing premise without any foundation whatsoever.

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Frank,

Ok, if it makes you happy, then I was wrong. I didn't mean to imply you had brought it up.

Geez.

I, myself, believe in the Holy Trinity; God the Father, God the Son; God the Holy Spirit.

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Moishe3rd wrote:

real life wrote:
El-Diablo wrote:
I think he meant god not christ. Christ simply mean messiah. That's not the argument. The argument was whether Jesus was/is God.

Maybe. We'll let him clarify his intent for sure. I appreciate your input.

If that is his point, it is still not correct. The Bible in many places identifies Jesus as God, and not just in Paul's writings.

Almost 700 years before Christ was born, Isaiah identified the child to be born as "the everlasting Father" Is 9:6

Other passages from the Old Testament that refer expressly to God are explicitly cited as referring to Jesus in the New Testament by writers before and after Paul.

Not maybe. The question and answer was whether or not Jesus was moshiach; the messiah. Even when Jesus claimed that he was, he did it in riddles and told one of his closest followers not to tell anyone else.
Your mistranslation of Isaiah out of context does not identify Jesus as anything.
The Christian desire to validate the claim that Jesus was G-d is nowhere to be found in either Jewish scriptures or, without tortuous machinations, in the gospels.
It is a much easier case to find the claim to divinity in the rest of the new testament, but even that, of course, can be interpreted differently.
But before the new testament? No, it is simply a matter of faith trying to uphold a pre-existing premise without any foundation whatsoever.

Actually El Diablo's statement was that I had misunderstood the question and that it had to do with whether Jesus was presented as God by Paul only, not whether He was presented as Christ by Paul only.

My position is that Paul is not unique in presenting Jesus as God or as Christ, that He is consistently presented by the entire New Testament as both.

You may disagree that He is one or other or both, but that is what is presented.

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When the Samaritan woman expresses her knowledge that Christ (Messiah) is foretold, and Jesus answers "I am He," that is hardly stating it in riddles.

When on trial, Jesus is asked, "Are you the Christ?" and He answers in the affirmative, that is hardly a riddle.

When Jesus asks His disciples, "Who do you say that I am?" Peter's response is that He is the Christ. Jesus states that God alone has revealed this to Him, that is not exactly a riddle.

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The Gospels begin with John the Baptist's statement that he was sent to prepare the way for the LORD (Jehovah God), to make His paths straight. This is a direct reference to the Old Testament and points to his identification of Jesus as God. You may not agree with John's view of Jesus, but it is clear that this is what is presented.

The birth of Jesus is recorded as being the result of the Holy Spirit (God) created in the womb a body for Jesus (God) to dwell in. This clearly indicates that Jesus is being presented not as a mere man in the Gospels but as a result of the direct intervention of God. Again, you are free to disagree with it, but the Gospels do state that Jesus was not born a mere man.

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If you want to present your translation of Isaiah, I would be glad to discuss it. I claim no knowledge of the Hebrew language, so I rely heavily on the integrity of the English translation. If you want to take issue with that, I would be glad to learn your viewpoint and respond as best I can.

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Really, real. How does Jesus answer Satan's challenge that he can turn any of God's creatures against him, even his firstborn son, if the two share the same identity? Why do you insist that if Jesus is divine, it must somehow mean he is of the same person as god? Or, that if he is a perfect representation and representative of God that he must also BE God?

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Neo,

I don't mean to butt in, but I gather you do not believe (I hesitate to use that word (danged Frank) in the Holy Trinity? If stated this incorrectly I am sorry.

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real and I have been at each other's scriptural throats over this for several weeks. You can start here: http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=51117

It is a considerably more civilized discussion Laughing

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neologist wrote:

real and I have been at each other's scriptural throats over this for several weeks. You can start here: http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=51117

It is a considerably more civilized discussion

Not many folks could have stayed awake that long, Neo. You are to be commended. Laughing

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neologist wrote:

Really, real. How does Jesus answer Satan's challenge that he can turn any of God's creatures against him, even his firstborn son, if the two share the same identity? Why do you insist that if Jesus is divine, it must somehow mean he is of the same person as god? Or, that if he is a perfect representation and representative of God that he must also BE God?

Actually, I answer you to give you the opportunity to say "Really, real.... " which you seem to enjoy.

More to your point however, calling Jesus "divine" but not God, but rather "a god" seems to postulate more than one, which the Bible forbids, doesn't it?

Is 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

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There are angels, right? They certainly are god like in many ways. And how about Satan, the god of this world? Surely none of these are equal to Jehovah, yet they are often referred to as gods.

We believe in angels but do not worship them, We believe in the foremost of the godlike creatures, Jesus, but do not worship him. That doesn't mean that we are not everlastingly grateful for his willingly undergoing the penalty of death in our behalf. We also thank him for giving the most outstanding answer possible to the challenge of Satan, that he could turn anyone against God.

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Quote:

We believe in angels but do not worship them

I don't know. There some Catholics who damn near cross the line with the whole saint thing.

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Neo,

But Satan was kicked out of heaven because he wanted to be God because he thought he was just as good as God.

So, you do believe Jesus is the Son of God though, right? Could you please explain ...of the godlike creatures, Jesus... I understand the not worshipping part, but I don't exactly know exactly how you view Jesus.

I just don't want to assume anything here. I am just trying to get a little clarity.

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I think you may have just said it when you say you understand not worshipping Jesus.

Were it not for Jesus we would all remain under the sentence of death and there would be nothing any human could do about it.

But Jesus also sanctified (hallowed) his father's name when he proved Satan a liar. This he could not have done if he were, in fact, God

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neologist wrote:

There are angels, right? They certainly are god like in many ways. And how about Satan, the god of this world? Surely none of these are equal to Jehovah, yet they are often referred to as gods.

We believe in angels but do not worship them, We believe in the foremost of the godlike creatures, Jesus, but do not worship him. That doesn't mean that we are not everlastingly grateful for his willingly undergoing the penalty of death in our behalf. We also thank him for giving the most outstanding answer possible to the challenge of Satan, that he could turn anyone against God.

Satan is referred to sarcastically as the "god of this world", just as the "gods" such as Molech were called gods by the Canaanites. Also prideful men are referred to sarcastically as "gods" because of their supposed superiority (Ps 82:1,6 John 10:34 Is 41:23) But they aren't gods and the Bible also makes it clear that even when they are called "gods" by some that they are not gods.

However the Bible never applies to angels the same titles as belong to God Himself. But scripture does refer to Jesus by these very same titles. If He were not God, that would be no less than blasphemy.

Scripture makes it clear that Christ is the Creator of all, that without Him not even one thing was made. And the passage in Isaiah says that no God was formed after Jehovah (even if some do refer to false gods as "gods").

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Okay, thank you. Another question. Do you believe in the Second Coming of Christ?

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neologist wrote:

I think you may have just said it when you say you understand not worshipping Jesus.

Were it not for Jesus we would all remain under the sentence of death and there would be nothing any human could do about it.

But Jesus also sanctified (hallowed) his father's name when he proved Satan a liar. This he could not have done if he were, in fact, God

The Bible says He was tempted in all ways just as we are. He was fully human , yet without sin. His complete humanity fully answers any objections you may have on this point.

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A bunch of silly myths...with otherwise intelligent adults pretending otherwise....and "I believe this..." and "I believe that..." and "I don't believe this..."

One would think that adults could get past that nonsense...leave the myths behind like they left Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy behind (supposing that they have.)

These myths are especially bizarre since at their core they are built on the lie that one of the most barbarous, murderous, monsterous gods ever invented by the human mind...is actually kind, compassionate, and loving.

You all ought to be ashamed of yourselves. You all owe humanity an apology for abetting this crime against humanity...this cancer infecting our planet.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Okay, thank you. Another question. Do you believe in the Second Coming of Christ?

The Greek word 'parousia' translated by many as 'coming' is better translated as 'presence'. I'll answer your question with a yes. But my understanding of what that means is likely not the same as what you may have been taught.

Luke 21:24 has Jesus saying "And Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled." The passage could also read 'gentile times'. Without getting into how the appointed times may be reckoned, suffice it to say that the end of those times is a significant event marked by a change in Jesus' activity. With the caveat that my summary may omit important details, that time corresponds with the time of Jesus' second 'presence'.

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Uh oh! He's baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack! Laughing

Thanx Neo. I guess it will just take a bit of time for me to understand your beliefs on some of these things. I do appreciate you answering my questions.

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Jesus also says in John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

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Just When Was Chrst Made God?

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