0
   

The Philly holocaust (where pro-life and pro-choice agree)

 
 
Reply Fri 21 Jan, 2011 06:54 pm
Dr. Kermit Gosnell of the Philadelphia Women's Medical Society has been indicted for the murders of 7 infants and one woman. The Grand Jury has just released their report on the atrocities he committed against both women and babies. You may read the whole thing here.

Neither the report nor my synopsis below is for the faint of heart...but this appears to be one case where both pro-choice and pro-life advocates will stand shoulder to shoulder in their mutual disgust and revulsion.

Gosnell's standard method for abortions was to have the woman arrive during the day, pay for the procedure, receive drugs to minimize pain and induce labor. Dr. (I use the term lightly) Gosnell would then show up late in the evening to complete the procedure. Many women would deliver before he showed up...and these would be left on the floor or toilet waiting for his arrival. Finally if any infants were still moving, Dr. Gosnell would "ensure fetal demise" by jabbing scissors in the back of their necks and snipping their spinal cords. Then he would cut off their feet and store them in specimen jars in the event DNA testing was needed. The fetal remains were stored in overflowing refrigerators and freezers, but sometimes left in the open until the stench required the staff to dispose of. He's charged with the murder of seven viable newborns (but suspected of hundreds more).

His atrocities were not only to newborns, but to the women as well. The condition of his facility was abhorrent. Inoperable medical machines, "one-use" medical tools used repeatedly until they broke, cats roaming freely, unsanitized tools used with blood from earlier patients. Report mentions that one way he was caught was when other hospitals recognized that women who went to his facility often came out with a certain venereal diseases (caught from the medical tools and devices he used and reused). He routinely perforated women's uterus' and colons during the procedure as well as failed to completely evacuate the uterus. He's charged with the third-degree murder of one woman but his culpability in other deaths is also suspected.

What's equally egregious is the blind eye that the authorities turned to his practices. The report states that the Pennsylvania Department of Health deliberately chose not to enforce laws...They conducted sporadic inadequate inspections for 13 years and then none at all between 1993 and 2010. They failed to investigate even after the self-reported death of the woman that Gosnell is now charged with murder.

The state was “repeatedly confronted with evidence about Gosnell” – including the clinic’s unclean, unsterile conditions, unlicensed workers, unsupervised sedation, underage abortion patients, and over-prescribing of pain pills with high resale value on the street – “and repeatedly chose to do nothing.”

Even the National Abortion Federation did nothing despite the fact that the inspector wrote that Gosnell's clinic was “the worst abortion clinic she had ever inspected”.
  • Topic Stats
  • Top Replies
  • Link to this Topic
Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 2,817 • Replies: 20
No top replies

 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Jan, 2011 10:25 pm
@slkshock7,
It will be interesting to see the posts this thread attracts.

Cleary this monster is an aberration, but it will be illuminating to see how our pro-choice friends react to and explain him.
boomerang
 
  2  
Reply Fri 21 Jan, 2011 10:59 pm
I'm pro choice and I would never defend him. Never. He's a monster.

I hate the idea of abortion but I understand the necessity of keeping it safe and legal. Stories like this (and other horror stories of abuse and neglect) would become much more common if abortion were outlawed. I think it's very important to note that he preyed on poor women.

I have very complicated feelings about abortion under the "best" of circumstances. Since I am an adoptive parent who visits some adoption forums and has conversations with birthmothers I think I might even have an extra layer of thought on the topic that many people don't.

I also have very complicated feelings about father's rights being ignored in the abortion debate.

But despite my complicated feelings I can find no excuse for what this man did.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Jan, 2011 11:10 pm
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:

I'm pro choice and I would never defend him. Never. He's a monster.

I hate the idea of abortion but I understand the necessity of keeping it safe and legal. Stories like this (and other horror stories of abuse and neglect) would become much more common if abortion were outlawed. I think it's very important to note that he preyed on poor women.

I have very complicated feelings about abortion under the "best" of circumstances. Since I am an adoptive parent who visits some adoption forums and has conversations with birthmothers I think I might even have an extra layer of thought on the topic that many people don't.

I also have very complicated feelings about father's rights being ignored in the abortion debate.

But despite my complicated feelings I can find no excuse for what this man did.


I'm an adoptive father as well, and my oldest son could very easily have been aborted as given up for adoption.

I've no ambiguity.
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Jan, 2011 11:21 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
The lack of ambiguity must be nice. I'd love that kind of clarity.

Mo could have easily been aborted too. It's a long story but I had known his other mom for years and years before she gave birth to him. He was six when Mr. B and I adopted him (and we weren't looking to adopt). I discussed abortion with his other mom way back when she was pregnant.

Yet as much as I love Mo (and I don't think anyone, anywhere, doubts that I do) I still believe that a woman should have the right to an abortion.
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Jan, 2011 11:28 pm
I am an adoptive parent as well and I am pro choice and will remain pro choice. What Gosnell did is criminal and insane. There is no excuse for his
behavior and he should be prosecuted and tried to the maximum sentence.
Nonetheless, one bad apple should not spoil the entire profession and we
have to distinguish between a murderer and a physician doing his job, even
if it entails an abortion.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Fri 21 Jan, 2011 11:33 pm
@boomerang,
Quote:
The lack of ambiguity must be nice. I'd love that kind of clarity.


You can have it if you give up trying to resolve everything in life based on a post-modernist sense that there is no right or wrong.

You love your son and see all the potential he brings to the world.

Do you think the millions of aborted babies couldn't match up to him if given a chance?

Being a man bears burdens as does being a woman.

Those burdens tend to be gifts when seen with but a minor squinting of the eyes.

Is it really all about "me?"
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Jan, 2011 07:53 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
What's right for me isn't right for everyone; the fact that I'm an adoptive parent kind of proves that. Parenting isn't the right choice for everyone.

I don't think it's right for me to get to choose what's right for everyone else.

Nothing post-modern about it.

0 Replies
 
slkshock7
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Jan, 2011 10:30 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn,
He's clearly a monster...but what is most remarkable to me is that he was allowed to do this for decades with the authorities apparently willing to look away presumably because he was performing a service e.g. late-term abortions that was not available elsewhere. Evidently the legality of the procedure as well as the health and safety of those undergoing the procedure was a far lesser consideration than ensuring the continued availability of the "service".

The regulatory agencies of Pennsylvania need some serious house-cleaning with a purge (or criminal prosecution) of all government employees aware....but turning a blind eye towards Gosnell's practices.

My fear is that this wanton disregard of regulatory and legal restrictions to abortion might be more prevalent than just Pennsylvania.
0 Replies
 
slkshock7
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Jan, 2011 11:13 am
@boomerang,
Boomerang wrote:
I hate the idea of abortion but I understand the necessity of keeping it safe and legal. Stories like this (and other horror stories of abuse and neglect) would become much more common if abortion were outlawed.


I would have to somewhat disagree. The current laws and restrictions on abortions are designed to keep abortion safe and legal. In this case, Dr. Gosnell made his profits by intentionally disregarding those regulations and he was aided and abetted by regulatory agencies that looked the other way. I would hope that Dr. Gosnell would not have been engaged (or at least more quickly prosecuted) in these activities if abortion itself was illegal.
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Jan, 2011 11:28 am
@slkshock7,
Ah here we go again - a pro life advocate who is trying to tell us that abortions should be illegal because of one insane physician. He not only violated abortion procedures, he was in all of his medical procedures and practices negligent. This doesn't mean however that all abortions should be illegal.

Don't disguise your true intentions behind one bad apple.
slkshock7
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Jan, 2011 11:43 am
@CalamityJane,
Nor does it mean that all abortions should be legal. I am pro-life and I accept that the law of the land allows it with certain restrictions. But is it too much to ask that the few laws that do constrain the practice be actually enforced?
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Sat 22 Jan, 2011 11:45 am
@slkshock7,
slkshock7 wrote:

Nor does it mean that all abortions should be legal. I am pro-life and I accept that the law of the land allows it with certain restrictions. But is it too much to ask that the few laws that do constrain the practice be actually enforced?


No, it's not. I'm strongly pro-choice but that doesn't mean that guys like this aren't butchers who deserve to be put down like the dogs they are.

I would say, though, that before abortion was legal, that this kind of guy was much, much more common. Because ladies who don't want to have babies simply aren't going to have them. We can either make it safe or force them to go to guys like this. I think this case highlights the complex nature of the matter; there are no easy, pat answers.

Cycloptichorn
slkshock7
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Jan, 2011 12:40 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cyclo wrote:
We can either make it safe or force them to go to guys like this.


However in this case the authorities did neither and I condemn them just as severely as Dr. Gosnell.

It certainly will be interesting to see if the pro-choice folks who condemn Dr. Gosnell (and the authorities who turned a blind eye) for atrocities against innocent women will also strongly condemn his abhorrent acts to the late-term fetuses? After all both acts are equally illegal in the eyes of the law.
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Jan, 2011 01:04 pm
@slkshock7,
The law defines pretty clearly what should be legal and what shouldn't -
no need for you to interfere, especially since it would not involve you. Every
woman has the right to chose what will happen to her body, regardless if
you personally like it or not.
Who are you to define that abortion should be illegal?
As Cyclo rightfully said, butchers like this were much more common when
abortions were illegal. You pro life fanatics are just that - fanatics without
merit or reasoning.
slkshock7
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Jan, 2011 03:40 pm
@CalamityJane,
Calamity Jane,
If you would read my posts more carefully before stereotyping me, you would see that, despite my personal beliefs, I never condemned the law of the land that legalizes abortion. I do believe that what Dr. Gosnell did was illegal and what the authorities didn't do to preclude his actions should also be illegal. I would hope that you and I could at least agree on that.

Your immediate and unjustified prejudgment makes you appear as far more fanatical than I.
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Jan, 2011 03:55 pm
@slkshock7,
Sorry slkshock7, I've volunteered many years at Planned Parenthood,
and I can be a tad more defensive than I should. Yes, we definitely agree
on that Dr. Gosnell should pay for his actions, his license needs to be taken
away and authorities need to be held accountable for their actions, or better
lack of actions.
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Jan, 2011 05:24 pm
@CalamityJane,
I understood that his license was revoked last year.
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Jan, 2011 06:10 pm
@boomerang,
Some still keep on going. I remember they once showed on 60 Minutes a plastic surgeon in New Jersey who butchered and disfigured his female patients very badly. He had his license revoked in several states, yet he was still operating
until one brave woman called the police.
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Jan, 2011 06:45 pm
@slkshock7,
Quote:
It certainly will be interesting to see if the pro-choice folks who condemn Dr. Gosnell (and the authorities who turned a blind eye) for atrocities against innocent women will also strongly condemn his abhorrent acts to the late-term fetuses? After all both acts are equally illegal in the eyes of the law.


Three of us right here have condemned his murder of the "late term fetuses", or babies, as most of us call them, and we have all suggested that he should be locked away in prison forever.
 

Related Topics

Is the fetus in the womb a human being? - Question by kellirosej
Abortion - Discussion by Finn dAbuzz
Abortion. Right or Murder? - Question by lmac2017
Motivation of Abortion Protesters - Question by gollum
People Wonder Why . . . - Question by plainoldme
God Damnit, Texas. - Discussion by DrewDad
Why would abortion after rape be ok? - Discussion by chai2
 
  1. Forums
  2. » The Philly holocaust (where pro-life and pro-choice agree)
Copyright © 2021 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 01/20/2021 at 06:32:39