20
   

OMG - Look how obese this woman is.

 
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2010 05:30 pm
@Roberta,
I took ballet for a while, and my daughter takes ballet now. One thing I'm very, very happy about is that there now seems to be more allowance for two types of ballerinas. One type is THE ballerina type, who might go on to be a professional. This type is really constrained. Small, light as air, delicate. Exactly. (This goes for not only weight but height.)

However, while that was really the only type when I was serious about ballet -- I had virtually zero body fat but my teacher still made disparaging comments about my "childbearing hips" -- there is a new type at my daughter's (very serious) ballet school, which is the type who won't make it as a professional ballerina but that's not the point. This is a much more process-oriented type -- ballet is a wonderful art and form of exercise, and much can be gained from participating in it even if one doesn't go on to be a professional ballerina (perhaps another type of professional dancer). But there is a really wide variety of body types on display up until the very highest levels, and that really seems to be a non-issue.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2010 05:31 pm
Quote:
At Columbia City Ballet, officials monitor dancers' weight and post the figures publicly on a weekly basis. At Cleveland San Jose Ballet, performers hit the scales at the beginning of the season, but results are confidential. At both companies, those who fall above or below the weight mandated in their contracts can be fined, placed on weight probation, removed from parts, or fired. Still other troupes, including those represented by the dancers' union, the American Guild of Musical Artists, have no contractual provisions about body size. Teachers contacted for an October Dance Magazine report on schools consider health and nutrition an important part of a dancer's education, and often their schools offer professional counseling. Artistic directors, however, can have different priorities. An informal Dance Magazine survey revealed no magic formula, but rather a surprising range of approaches.

CCB's weight guidelines are spelled out in its contract, which states that the dancer is "prohibited from dramatically altering the physical appearance he/she presented at the audition. This includes . . . alterations in hair style, hair color, or substantial weight gain or loss." The contract defines substantial weight gain or loss as "a fluctuation of more than five pounds from the Member's performance weight determined by the artistic director and the ballet mistress or master. The Member will weigh in each Saturday . . . and record his/her weight . . . on the weight chart posted at the Columbia Conservatory of Dance." Dancers who fail to weigh in are fined $20.

"Physical appearance is very important," said artistic director William Starrett. "I have a lot of rules, and a lot of people have had trouble with it. . . . With the chart they can see a variance. It works well. It makes them more aware and forces them to eat properly." Starrett said dancers are encouraged to read about nutrition, but that he's most concerned with the artistic impact and overall look of the company. If dancers are unable to meet his weight standards, he maintained, "They're no good to me. I can't paint with fat paintbrushes. I'm trying to get people to really love ballet. The audience won't pay if it's not special, not magical. It is not worth $25."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1083/is_n11_v71/ai_19961255/

A lot of the demand for ballet dancers to be thin I think revolves around the "artistic vision", much the same as when fashion designers generally put their work on thin tiny tit models. This offends our democratic ideal of inclusiveness. I dont think that we will see much in the way of calls for fat ballerinas like we have seen for fat models (which has had very little effect because the fashion houses are selling clothes not democratic theory and thus don't comply with the demand). Fashion is sold to the masses, where as ballet only interests a tiny fraction of the public, who tend to want their ballet pure.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2010 05:38 pm
@sozobe,
Quote:
But there is a really wide variety of body types on display up until the very highest levels, and that really seems to be a non-issue.
those who want to sell schooling make a virtue out of necessity. If only those with a future in the art where allowed into ballet class 3/4 of those there now would be gone....making a living at being a ballet teacher would get mighty difficult.
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2010 05:46 pm
@hawkeye10,
But it's the non-issue part that is different. When I took ballet only a small percentage would make it as professional ballerinas, too, but everyone was THIN (me included). Lots of anorexics etc., even amongst the people who didn't have the talent to become professionals. I was unusual because I didn't have any particular aspirations to being a ballerina, I just liked ballet and had a natural aptitude for it and so I kept going for a while. I stopped in part because everyone around me was taking it so damn seriously and would gawp at me if I ate a sandwich between classes (I was accused of being a bulimic because I seemed to eat normally but stayed so thin, child-bearing hips notwithstanding). (She meant the bone structure -- my hips were too wide.)

Now there seems to be this whole parallel group who really don't have any illusions about making it as a professional, but they just like to dance.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2010 06:00 pm
@sozobe,
Quote:
When I took ballet only a small percentage would make it as professional ballerinas, too, but everyone was THIN
I think that if you check you will see that girls today tend to be much more chubby then they were when you were a kid, you cant make a living on thin girls who want to do ballet anymore. I agree with you in the sense that girls that dont have the body for ballet are today none the less welcomed by both the teacher and other students, which was not true a few decades ago, when such girls would have been told to their face that they were sucking up space and time with out cause. How ever just ten years ago my daughter was pretty much booted from Ballet when she put on more weight than the teacher wanted to see...she was 8YO...and overtime was made to feel unwelcome. This WAS hoity-toity Carmel Ca though.

If you dont mind telling...how were you able to do ballet deaf? I am guessing that you can hear a bit....
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2010 06:02 pm
@hawkeye10,
I quit shortly before I became deaf. I was hearing until I was 13 or 18, depending on how you measure (hearing started fluctuating wildly at age 13, gradually getting worse, until it leveled off at profoundly deaf at age 18). Oh and I don't mind at all.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2010 06:04 pm
@chai2,
Chai for queen...
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2010 06:17 pm
This all reminds me of a friend that showed up at our wedding party with a gorgeous and flouncy coconut cake. Well, she was, besides a great cook, bro in law's girl friend. They both were dancers, though I never did see them perform in what I remember as an international dancing venue.

She was short and chunky and made of rubber. Thank you now, Jean.

Dance varies.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2010 06:40 pm
@High Seas,
Quote:
You haven't seen the ballet recently? You'll recognize the music...

No, I haven't been to the ballet recently. The cost would be prohibitive on my limited finances and ballet wouldn't be high on my list of priorities. Yes, I am familiar with the music.

But I was interested in the "body type" issues raised here.
I thought Jenifer Ringer's comment that "different body types" should be celebrated in ballet was an interesting one. (I was interested in Soz's comments, too.):

Quote:
"As a dancer I do put myself out there to be criticized, and my body is part of my art form," she said on NBC's "Today" show. "At the same time, I'm not overweight. I do have, I guess, a more womanly body type than the stereotypical ballerina."
Ringer said different body types should be celebrated in ballet, not criticized.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20101213/us_yblog_thelookout/sugar-plum-fairy-doesnt-want-apology-from-critic-who-called-her-fat

Is only one body type still considered the only possible one for the Sugar Plum Fairy today, because of traditional interpretations? You never know, a bit more flexibility might actually prove to be a positive thing for ballet, the performers & their audience.





hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2010 09:08 pm
@msolga,
Quote:
Is only one body type still considered the only possible one for the Sugar Plum Fairy today, because of traditional interpretations? You never know, a bit more flexibility might actually prove to be a positive thing for ballet, the performers & their audience.


this is a long running debate with-in ballet, the majority decision is that once the old standards go ballet is no longer ballet, it is modern dance. Ballet needs to keep the standards or else vanish. If people want to do/see modern dance then they should go do that, if they want to do/see ballet then they need to suck it up and do/expect to see the standards conformed to....

Or so my wife tells me at any rate, she was a dancer in NY and Detroit till an injury at the age of 15 sidelined her. She did the nutcracker in NY for either four or five years...
Pemerson
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2010 10:19 pm
@chai2,
Have you seen the movie, "The Black Swan?" Fascinating, beautiful movie. As we walked to our car, after seeing this movie, I had to tell my husband that the movie probably described the hell someone may travel through (physically and psychologically) when they are desperately trying to be perfect at something. Part of that journey was this young girl trying to get from under her domineering and controlling mother.

I took ballet for a spell after having my first baby at a dance studio where my sister's husband was studying singing, acting and dance, would you believe it, on his G.I. Bill.

One of my grandaughters began taking dance and singing last year, went to dance camp, and is now taking dancing at a school of dance. Not just ballet, but modern dance, too. She is very thin but has built those long beautiful legs up by horseback riding and dancing.

Ballet is good for all little girls (don't know about boys), but if they plan to be a successful ballerina, they must have natural turn-out, which she does. She also has a rather long torso. They are almost contortionists, born that way. But, I've heard if they start very, very young they can learn to twist their legs, that way. I never could but those stretches at the bar I'm still doing.

Isn't it sad they get these young girls to be so thin. They are usually ultra sensitive in the first place. The ones I watched, though, had huge muscular legs and butt.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2010 10:29 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
A lot of the demand for ballet dancers to be thin I think revolves around the "artistic vision", much the same as when fashion designers generally put their work on thin tiny tit models.


it's a trend

over the centuries, the shapes of ballerinas have varied

for example, the Russian dancers were once much larger

times change, styles change, body type preferences change

Marshall Pynkowski and Jeanette Zyngg of Opera Atelier did interesting research in this area, as have others.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2010 10:30 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
this is a long running debate with-in ballet, the majority decision is that once the old standards go ballet is no longer ballet, it is modern dance.


there simply is no relationship between modern dance and ballet, though some dancers do study multiple forms - but it's not that easy to slide from ballet as a form to modern dance
Pemerson
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Dec, 2010 11:15 pm
@ehBeth,
Oh, I don't know. I've always found that ballet is a basis for any kind of dance. In my 20's I danced in some variety shows. The other 3 girls studied dancing since they were 3. Me, I counted, one, two, three, four, and memorised. The other three just danced the step that was called out by director. Tap dancing, too. It was unbelievable fun.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Dec, 2010 12:21 am
interesting:
Quote:
Although Portman did use a double for some of the more complicated choreography, she still had to look the part of a ballerina.

Portman says that not eating — or, rather, eating very little — is an essential part of a dancer’s lifestyle. “I’m a very short person, and you’re supposed to look very long,” she explains. “And you don’t have the bulk on you — which is, like, sick. The whole thing, I’m aware that it’s sick.”

…For the record, not all of Portman got smaller while training. “Dancers, even when they’re really frailly skinny, have a very strong butt. So Mary Helen [former New York City Ballet company member Mary Helen Bowers] did a lot of work on my butt,” she giggles. The result? “Definitely a huge, huge, um…change.”

http://www.skinnyvscurvy.com/natalie-portman/natalie-portman-losing-weight-ballerina-role-the-thing-i%E2%80%99m-aware-it%E2%80%99s-sick-%E2%80%9D.html
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Dec, 2010 12:32 am
@hawkeye10,
we have seen a lot of bitching about exactly the same thing in gymnastics, with people like Béla Károlyi who are honest about the desirability of thin getting a lot of tongue lashings. So now everyone says the right things, talks about how evil starving the body is, but has anything changed? I think not, the thin girls win, all the girls want to win, so the PC crap goes on one ear and out the other.

There may be a market for fat ballerinas, but I doubt it, no matter what is said for public consumption.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Dec, 2010 12:50 am
Smorgs, I just love her.
no link now.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Wed 15 Dec, 2010 01:02 am
Clearly, the woman isn't obese, and even by the standards of ballet or high fashion models, she isn't fat, but then the critic didn't call her obese or fat.

What he did write was

Quote:
Jenifer Ringer, as the Sugar Plum Fairy, looked as if she’d eaten one sugar plum too many


He also wrote about her partner

Quote:
... Jared Angle, as the Cavalier, seems to have been sampling half the Sweet realm.


Perhaps Ms Ringer is OK with Macauley's criticism because as she says, "I do put myself out there to be criticized, and my body is part of my art form," but the rest of her interview suggests otherwise. In any case, Macauley's criticism of the bodies and art form of Ringer and Angle was far more a catty quip then the analytical evaluation of artistic work.

Still this seems to be the way of critics and particularly those who write for the new York Times.

I am by no means an expert in ballet, classical or otherwise, and so I don't know if Hawkeye is accurate when he claims that a thin body type is an essential element of the aesthetic of ballet, but it sounds like a crock.

This is not to suggest that Hawkeye has fabricated the notion and either hasn't a clue about ballet or is pulling our collective leg. It is to suggest that it is ridiculous that even if a dancer can achieve technical perfection in all of her movements and conveys all of the concepts and emotions contemplated by the choreographer, it is not ballet because an arbitrary body type requirement has been violated.

Perhaps only dancers of the required body type are capable of technical and artistic perfection, but I doubt it and, in any case, this isn't what Hawkeye seems to be asserting. Instead he seems to be saying that ballet is in, at least this way, very much like body-building. Regardless of whether or not anyone can find the body type on display attractive, or whether it enables the individual to do anything other than meet a prescribed set of measurements, it is essential to the art form.

If this is true, no wonder classical ballet bores me.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Dec, 2010 01:24 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
from a prefessional reviewer

Quote:
Weighing in on the Ringer thing....
at 3:02 AM By Eric Taub
Jenifer Ringer recently appeared on The Today Show and made some unsurprisingly diplomatic comments about Alastair Macaulay's now-infamous review of her opening-night Nutcracker (with Jared Angle). It was mentioned in The NY Times' arts blog section, and has generated the usual run of reader comments. Perhaps because I couldn't sleep, I tossed in my own two cents' worth. In case it doesn't make the cut, I'm pasting it here for posterity, after cleaning up some ugly sentences:

Regarding that opening-night Nutcracker, both Ringer and Angle appeared slightly above their best weight. It did affect their line, but not, in my own opinion, enough to merit mention in a review. They've both been heavier and lighter, and I had no doubts that after a few performances they'd fine. It was, after all, the first night of the season, and the day after Thanksgiving -- more than enough reason to cut any dancer some slack. At the end of City Ballet's fall season, Ringer looked about as fit as I'd ever seen her, and, not coincidentally, dancing at her strongest, and reminding us she's got fine technique and a more-than-respectable jump. I'd have liked to see Ringer start Nutcracker season as she'd finished fall, but she has a long record of getting better and better as a season progresses, and I had no doubts that after a very few performances she'd be exactly where she wanted to be. Also, for me, the charm and charisma of Ringer's Sugar Plum were of far greater interest.

She wasn't, however, pushing herself hard technically, and she slightly changed the choreography of her Sugar Plum solo, replacing the two trickiest pirouettes with much easier turns. She's not the only CIty Ballet ballerina to finesse that part of the solo, and back in the day Balanchine himself would often tweak his steps to favor individual dancers' strengths and weaknesses, so I didn't consider Ringer's modifications to be of great detriment to her role, but they were there, and they're the sort of thing one notices. I've seen Ringer nail those turns in the past, and I'm sure she will again in the future. Both technically and physically she wasn't in her finest shape, but she wasn't far off, either.



Angle is City Ballet's finest partner since Jock Soto retired, and it was a treat for me to see how quietly and calmly he supported Ringer through the Nutcracker's very long and very tricky adagio. He was also fine and drama-free in his own short solos, and, for me, any slight deviations from his best line I noticed were hardly worth noting, or mentioning afterwards. I've seen Angle perform since then, and he's back to his best form, as I was quite sure he would be.

In ballet, it's not irrelevant to make note of a dancer's weight. As much as you might like to, you ultimately can't separate the dancer from the dance. It also was not incorrect of Macaulay to note that Ringer and Angle were above their best weights: they were.

I don't think that Ringer's history of weight and body-image issues make it somehow less appropriate to note her weight. She's a professional, and she's been consistently at, or near, the pinnacle of her profession for the decade or so that's passed since she rejoined City Ballet; she long ago slew, or at least tamed, those demons. Also, dancers are used to harsh criticisms. As one professional not distant from this fracas told me recently, "we're much harder on ourselves."

But just because an observation is both relevant and correct doesn't mean that it's appropriate or, more importantly, useful, and just because you can say something doesn't mean you should.

After a few paragraphs of heartfelt and, to my eye, illuminating, comments on Balanchine's choreography, Macaulay didn't leave himself space to say more than a few sentences about the performance at hand. As he wasn't exactly thrilled with the performance, perhaps it's just as well.

For me, the two real questions about Macaulay's remarks are ones of value and tone. Of all the observations he might have made about the performances of Ringer and Angle, was their weight of such aesthetic importance as to make the cut and merit inclusion in the very few words he gave to, not Ringer and Angle, but his New York Times readers? Was it really THE most important image for his readers to keep in their minds' eye about the pair's performance, against which all others should be filtered out?

Clearly Macaulay thought it was, or he would've mentioned something else. But what would Macaulay's choices tell a Times reader who'd attended that performance and then turned to the review for further enlightenment? (Of course, Macaulay mentioned more than the dancers' weights; he also criticized their style, saying they "dance like adults, but without adult depth or complexity." I'd perhaps understand this better if he'd mentioned a way in which they actually do "dance like adults," rather than [or in addition to] two ways they don't. He clearly has a very high opinion of the Times' readers' power of deduction; alas, my own isn't up to the task.)

As for tone, snark has had an honored place in criticism since the days we called it sarcasm. But, really, how much wit does it take to make fun of someone's weight? Macaulay certainly has plenty of cohorts in this endeavor, especially in the dance world, but does he really want to stand among them? More importantly, does the Times?
http://demicontretemps.blogspot.com/2010/12/one-about-that-ringer-thing.html

I find this to be persuasive...
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Dec, 2010 12:26 pm
@hawkeye10,
I do too and not really at odds with what I wrote. Certainly not the last bit.
0 Replies
 
 

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