@CoastalRat,
CoastalRat wrote:
Bribing members and exempting states from certain items in legislation that other states must follow just to gain a senator's vote because a bill would not pass without it is not considered "ramming" something through?
I think you'd have a hard time finding ANY piece of legislation which was the slightest bit controversial, that didn't include such things. So, no, I don't consider that ramming things through. Ramming things through would be, say, like holding votes open for 4 hours so you can bribe your own members to switch their vote (which the Republicans regularly did when they held the house). Or by using procedural tricks like Reconciliation to avoid the filibuster (which Republicans did with both Bush tax cuts). The Dems actually marshaled the votes, and got a couple of Republicans to vote with them each time. Hardly 'ramming through.'
I would also point out that the State exemptions were stripped from final versions of the HCR bill that passed, because the public - both at large and in that state - disagreed with it.
Quote:I'm not saying that dems compromised on nothing at all. Sure, they threw out a few bones, but mostly only to satisfy their own moderate members. At least that is my perception and I believe the perception of many Americans.
Well, that's not really accurate at all. The ARRA and HCR both included significant concessions to the Republicans, that the Republicans demanded. And Obama offered to compromise more on the HCR bill (by throwing in major Tort reform), but Republicans weren't even interested in discussing it.
Quote:When congress passes legislation that a majority of the country opposed (health care reform) in the form it took (congress not even knowing what was in the bill, per their own statements? Come on Cy, who passes crap that way? Oh yeah, democrats.) then I call that "ramming" it through.
You don't think that part of the reason people were so against it, was a concerted push by the Republicans to lie and deceive the public about what was in it? Remember the 'death panel' bullshit? You pretend that this was all organic, when it was anything but. The Republican party, their rich donors and Fox News teamed up to throw up a massive cloud of fear and doubt about the bill, all based on stuff which wasn't in it. They took the latent anger over Obama's election and pivoted it to the local Democrats, who were someone that these people could stand there and actually yell at.
Quote:The perception may not match up with the reality, but oftentimes, perception wins the day.
You're absolutely right about that. The Dems in both houses were pussies, afraid of standing up for what they had done. There was no unifying national message at all for the Dems, which really hurt in a tough-economy election like this. Like I posted in the other thread, people had the exact opposite idea of what has happened, then what has actually happened, re: the economy and taxes. You'll never win when the public is convinced you haven't done anything at all to solve problems, even when you have...
Cycloptichorn
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