maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2010 10:59 am
@CoastalRat,
Quote:
Don't be like Obama, Pelosi and Reid in talking how since they won in 2008 that we've just got to deal with it. Just suck it in and compromise.


More partisan spin CostalRat? This particular spin bends the facts an awful lot, don't you think? There was lots of room to compromise in the health care debate, for example. The Republicans left the table.

It was a Republican that coined the term "Party of Hell No!".


H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2010 11:02 am
Speaking of compromise, will Obama walk to the back of the bus and offer to work with victorious Republicans?
0 Replies
 
CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2010 11:15 am
@maxdancona,
What part of being clownish did you not understand max?

But to your point, democrats left no room for anything other than a total overhaul of our health care system. They were not talking about fixing the system, they wanted only to put us on a path to a single payer, government takeover of health care. There was no room for compromise. No need though to get that debate going on this thread.

maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2010 11:29 am
@CoastalRat,
Quote:
But to your point, democrats left no room for anything other than a total overhaul of our health care system. They were not talking about fixing the system, they wanted only to put us on a path to a single payer, government takeover of health care


Are you being clownish? (I really can't tell)

Many Americans wanted a single payer, government takeover of health care. The Bill that passed is not a single payer, government takeover. This health care bill was a compromise (or do you mean something different by the word).

Obama took the middle tack on health care. He took a lot of flack from the left for not pushing single payer. And, he took even more flack for giving up the public option. The Democrats gave up quite a bit of thing from their positions to try to reach out to Republicans. The Republicans weren't willing to budge on anything.

Obama did quite a bit of work to reach a middle position. The Republicans still grabbed their ball and left.

H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2010 11:31 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:



Many Americans wanted a single payer, government takeover of health care.



Really?

Who?

I'll bet none of these so called Americans you speak of are tax payers.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2010 11:33 am
@CoastalRat,
CoastalRat wrote:

What part of being clownish did you not understand max?

But to your point, democrats left no room for anything other than a total overhaul of our health care system. They were not talking about fixing the system, they wanted only to put us on a path to a single payer, government takeover of health care. There was no room for compromise. No need though to get that debate going on this thread.


If what you say is true, why didn't they pass single-payer health care? Or anything even closely resembling it? Why did they axe the Public Option, which really WOULD have put us on that path?

This is what I mean when I say that the biggest problem the Dems have is the publics' utter ignorance as to what they did over the last couple of years. You seem to have really internalized the bullshit your party pundits have pumped out regarding HC reform. What you keep repeating simply isn't true: the HCR bill had many compromises for the Republicans and included many traditionally Republican ideas.

But your party couldn't compromise, not even a little, because they had whipped the base up into a frenzy over 'death panels' and the like, and their electoral prospects hung on NOT compromising. Hard to blame the Dems for that.

edit: I saw you added this below:

Quote:
If this were true, then many more republicans would have voted for it than the couple who did. I think your definition of compromise is a bit off-kilter.


I don't understand the logic behind this assertion. You don't think the Republicans had reason not to compromise at all? This flies in the face of the reality of their electoral strategy and in the face of the fact that Obama offered them significant compromises, which they were uninterested in even discussing, because they would get lynched by their own rabid base for doing so.

Cycloptichorn
CoastalRat
 
  2  
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2010 11:34 am
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Many Americans wanted a single payer, government takeover of health care


Many may have. But I think a majority of Americans did not.

Quote:
This health care bill was a compromise


If this were true, then many more republicans would have voted for it than the couple who did. I think your definition of compromise is a bit off-kilter.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2010 11:41 am
@CoastalRat,
Quote:
If this were true, then many more republicans would have voted for it than the couple who did.


What part of "party of no" don't you understand. The Republican have opposed everything as a block since Obama was elected. Republicans, because of politics, even opposed bills they previously co-signed. The idea that Republican political games are a sign that Obama and the Democrats aren't trying to reach across the aisle is very flawed logic.

Compromise means giving up on some of your ideals in order to find a solution in the middle.

The Democrats, including Obama, gave up on many of their ideas in order to pass the health care bill. The Republicans walked away from the table and weren't willing to give up anything.

It is funny that "No Compromise!" is the cry being heard prominently from Republican victors.


0 Replies
 
CoastalRat
 
  2  
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2010 11:42 am
@Cycloptichorn,
I would submit that the bill that was passed will lead to a single payer system. The dems in congress know this as sure as the repubs do. Why in the name of God would my company keep paying our portion of health care costs when we can pay a $2,000 fine per employee and let the government take care of that for our employees. Believe me, $2,000 would be a lot less than we pay now. And the dems know this as well as anyone. Not to even mention the constitutional issue of forcing someone to buy something simply because they are a US citizen. It was a lousy reform bill pushed through simply because they could do so and they expected the citizens of this country to just roll over and take it up the backside. Well, I think the citizens have responded.

My personal belief is that had the dems not been so dang insistent on shoving this bill down the throats of Americans then what happened yesterday would not have been nearly as bad for them as it turned out to be. I could be wrong about that, but we will never know.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2010 11:44 am
@CoastalRat,
Quote:

My personal belief is that had the dems not been so dang insistent on shoving this bill down the throats of Americans then what happened yesterday would not have been nearly as bad for them as it turned out to be. I could be wrong about that, but we will never know.


My personal belief is that if the unemployment rate was 5% right now, the Democrats would have done much better Health Care or no Health Care bill.

I hope you are correct about Single Payer coming. I am not as optimistic as you seem to be.

0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2010 11:51 am
@CoastalRat,
CoastalRat wrote:

I would submit that the bill that was passed will lead to a single payer system. The dems in congress know this as sure as the repubs do. Why in the name of God would my company keep paying our portion of health care costs when we can pay a $2,000 fine per employee and let the government take care of that for our employees. Believe me, $2,000 would be a lot less than we pay now.


The answer to that is: why do they pay for your health care right now? At all? Because perks like that attract top employees, and ostensibly because the HC they offer is superior to that you'd get under the government system.

And examine the converse case: if the insurance they offer ISN'T superior to the gov't exchange, why do you even want it?

The logical case you're making has a few holes in it.

Quote:
And the dems know this as well as anyone. Not to even mention the constitutional issue of forcing someone to buy something simply because they are a US citizen.


Is it even worth pointing out that the insurance mandate was a Conservative position from the 90's?

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123670612

Quote:
But Hatch's opposition is ironic, or some would say, politically motivated. The last time Congress debated a health overhaul, when Bill Clinton was president, Hatch and several other senators who now oppose the so-called individual mandate actually supported a bill that would have required it.

In fact, says Len Nichols of the New America Foundation, the individual mandate was originally a Republican idea. "It was invented by Mark Pauly to give to George Bush Sr. back in the day, as a competition to the employer mandate focus of the Democrats at the time."


This is what I mean when I say that the public doesn't seem to realize that the HCR bill isn't some Liberal demon. These ideas are not crazy Liberal ideas. They were pushed by members of your party as little as a decade ago.

Quote:
It was a lousy reform bill pushed through simply because they could do so and they expected the citizens of this country to just roll over and take it up the backside. Well, I think the citizens have responded.


They passed a HCR bill because the country desperately needed the reform. I don't know why you think that people had to 'take it up the backside,' when the effect of the bill is lower Federal deficits and much higher rates of insurance for everyone. It is a win-win in almost every way and specifically helps out millions who couldn't get insurance before. What exactly is the sacrifice that you and others are being asked to make?

Quote:
My personal belief is that had the dems not been so dang insistent on shoving this bill down the throats of Americans then what happened yesterday would not have been nearly as bad for them as it turned out to be. I could be wrong about that, but we will never know.


It is possible, but if we make our governing philosophy 'do whatever the fickle public wants, all the time, just so we can win elections,' the country will be screwed quick. I remember that under Bush, the Republican mantra - for years - was that 'polls didn't matter. Doing what is right matters.' What happened to that?

I would also point out that of the Dems who voted AGAINST the HCR bill in the House, 39 of them in total, 27 got booted from Congress. I don't see how you reconcile the fact that those people who voted in the fashion you recommend, and who in many cases spoke loudly against it, still got booted out on their ass, with your idea that more Dems needed to do this to save their seats.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2010 03:21 pm
Marco Rubio is setting the example for the future of this country... I hope people take note of this.
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2010 03:29 pm
@H2O MAN,
it's all the work of the illuminati, the one world government is coming, the president in the tv series the event is a cuban american, they're gonna get him elected, stage a false flag alien invasion, , unite the world in a common enemy, and the NWO is born

get your tinfoil hats now, the truth is out there


way out there
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  2  
Reply Wed 3 Nov, 2010 03:33 pm
Does anyone have a link to the text of Rubio's speech. I've listened to it a couple times and would like to see the text if it's been published.
Irishk
 
  2  
Reply Thu 4 Nov, 2010 11:07 am
@JPB,
It's on his website:

http://www.marcorubio.com/
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2010 04:35 pm
Thank you so much. Thank you. About an hour and a half ago, I received two very gracious phone calls. Governor Crist called me to congratulate. And I thank him for that gracious phone call.

Congressman Meek called to congratulate and I told him that he has given us a lesson in dignity and in strength.

And I thank both of them for being worthy opponents in a difficult campaign. And I wanted to thank all of you for all the help you’ve given me as well.

Let me begin tonight by acknowledging a simple but profound truth. We are all children of a powerful and great God. Of a God who isn’t always going to end – things are not always going to end up the way you want them. His will is not always going to be yours.

But I promise you this. No matter what you face in life, he will give you the strength to go through it. I bear witness to that tonight as so many of you do in your own lives and must always be acknowledged in everything we do and everywhere we go.

I don’t even know how to begin how to describe this journey but to thank so many of you that have been a part of this. And we’ll talk about little tidbits of that in a moment.

Clearly I’m grateful to my family. To my wife, Jeanette, who has made this possible. Raising children under any circumstances is a two-person job but she has done it alone for the last two years. I owe her a debt of gratitude I will never be able to repay. I am blessed to have her as my wife and I am grateful that she is with us here today.

I am also blessed with four children who remind me every day of what’s important in life but also give me the strength even throughout this campaign. There was a moment early in this campaign where I didn’t know how I was going to raise the money to be competitive.

And I’ll never forget that the next morning my children showed up, they had collected their allowance, which was largely quarters and single-dollar bills, and handed it to me. I didn’t tell them that. They overheard me.

And it was in that moment that I was reminded of what this race and election was really all about. It was not about any of our individual ambitions but it was about the future, as represented by them and their generation.

And that lesson is profound. It’s one that I will not soon forget.

Tomorrow or even now, the stories are being written about what this election is about. What does it mean? And we still don’t know all the results from around this country.

But we know that tonight, the power in the United States House of Representatives will change hands. We know tonight that a growing number of Republicans will now serve in the Senate as well. And we make a grave mistake if we believe that tonight these results are somehow an embrace of the Republican Party.

What they are is a second chance. A second chance for Republicans to be what they said they were going to be not so long ago. You see, I learned early on in this campaign – in fact it’s what propelled me to enter it – that what this race was about was about the great future that lies ahead for our country, a future that Americans know is there for the taking. But it requires actions on our part.

Americans believe with all their heart, the vast majority of them, and the vast majority of Floridians, that the United States of America is simply the single greatest nation in all of human history, a place without equal in the history of all mankind.

But we also know that something doesn’t seem right. Our nation is headed in the wrong direction and both parties are to blame. And what Americans are looking for desperately are people that will go to Washington, D.C., and stand up to this agenda that is taking us in the wrong direction and offer a clear and genuine alternative.

And that’s what this race was about early on for me. And that’s what it’s about tonight. It is about the future of this country and what it will look like when our children are our age. Now let me tell you, there are those out there that doubt about the greatness of America. Sometimes when I say it, I hear the snickers from some in different parts. They think it’s simplistic.

But see, I know America’s great not because I read about it in a book, but because I’ve seen it with my eyes. I’ve been raised in a community of exiles, a people who lost their country, a people who know what it’s like to live somewhere else. By the way, a community that I am proud to be a part of – a community of men and women that were once my age. And when they were, they had dreams like we have now. And yet, they lost all those things through an accident of history.

So they came here to try to rebuild their lives. And some did. But many others could not. And instead, it became the purpose of their life to leave their children with the opportunities they themselves did not have. This is the story of the Cuban exile community. And it defines what so many of us who are a product of it are.

And I know this, no matter where I go or what title I may achieve, I will always be the son of exiles.

And we will always be the heirs of two generations of unfulfilled dreams. The other way that I know about America’s greatness is the story of a man that I knew well, of someone who wasn’t born in this country. When he was six years old, he lost his mother. When he was 12, he lost his father.

He grew up largely in a society where what you were going to be when you grew up was decided for you. This is like almost every other place in the world. Think about what that means. That means that before you are even born, how far you are going to get to go in life is decided for you by who your parents are or are not.

And that’s how it is almost everywhere in the world. And this is how it was for that man. He was fortunate enough to make it here to America where he was never able to capture his own dreams of his own youth.

Instead, he made it the mission of his life to ensure that his children would have every opportunity he did not, that every door that was closed for him would be open to them, that the day would never come for them that came for him, the day when he realized that his own dreams would not be possible.

And so now, life was about opening the pathways for his children. This story I know well and it verifies to me the greatness of our country because, tonight, with your vote you have elected his son to the United States Senate.

But you see, although that’s our story, it’s not exclusive to us. In fact, at this very moment, it is playing out within walking distance of this very place. Tonight, all across this state and all across this country, there are people working hard to ensure that their children would have a better opportunity in this life than they have had themselves. And they are blessed to live in this great and extraordinary society, where indeed that dream is still possible and is still true.

This is our story. But our story says more about our country than it does about us. And it is what we are fighting to protect and preserve for the generations to come. It’s what this election’s been about for me from the very beginning. You see, when you’re 35 points down in the polls, and the only people who think you can win live in your house, and four of them are under the age of 10, you better know why you’re running.

When you have to drive four hours to get back home after speaking to 50 people and it’s 1:30 in the morning and the Garmin says there’s still an hour and a half to go and you’re not sure how you’re going to stay awake, you better know why you’re running.

And I found the strength in this campaign to move forward on days where I was not sure if I should or could, from tokens of extraordinary kindness from every corner of this state.

Sometimes it happened when I was at a restaurant, maybe meeting with some folks and thought, maybe this is the last day of this campaign, maybe I made the wrong choice. And just like that, someone would appear and encourage me to continue. Other times it came in the form of $25 checks in the mail from a single mother or an elderly person, a senior, on a fixed income.

Each and every time that we thought this campaign had run its course, something like that would happen to remind us that this race was never about me or about us. But it was about the fact that we are privileged and blessed to be citizens of this extraordinary society, and that that is something worth fighting for. That we have the opportunity to ensure that our children and grandchildren are the freest and most prosperous Americans that ever lived.

If only we are willing to do what the Americans that came before us did: to stand up and confront the great challenges of our time. To say as those who came before us said: that we will not leave our problems for our children unresolved. We will not allow them to inherit our debt and our mistakes. But rather that we will do whatever we must do to ensure that for them, life will be better than for us, that for them, our country will be better than the one we inherited, that tomorrow will be greater than today, that our history will surpass our heritage.

This has been the story of this extraordinary land for two hundred and thirty-some odd years. And tonight, at this crossroads at which we stand, we are asked to choose whether it will continue to be our story moving forward.

For before us lies two very different roads. One road is the road that Washington and both parties have placed us on. It is a road of politicians that will say or do anything to win the next election, but are unwilling to tackle the issues of our time. It is the road of those who are in politics to be somebody, not to do something. It is the road of those, perhaps the first generation in our history, willing to allow their children to inherit all their mistakes and all the things that went wrong. And that, tragically, is the road that we are on right now.

But there’s another road. It is the road that I hope we will begin to walk on again tonight. It is a road that says our children deserve to inherit the greatest society in all of human history. It is a road that understands that the world is a safer and better place when America is the strongest country in the world. It is a road that realizes that there is still at least one place on this planet where it doesn’t matter if your dad was a bartender and your mom was a maid. You can accomplish anything you want if you’re willing to work hard for it and play by the rules.

In a few short days, I will have the extraordinary privilege and honor of joining the United States Senate. But I do so with my eyes wide open. I understand that Washington is a place where we’ve sent people before, and they don’t come back the same way we sent them. It is a place that literally changes people, and within a short period of time, they forgot why they even ran.

And so, tonight, I ask for your prayers for me and for my family that we will not change, that we will always remember what carried us on those lonely days when few believed that this day would come, that we will always remember the things we cared about on this night, that I will constantly carry on my back the obligation that comes with knowing that I represent more than just those who voted for me today, but the millions of Floridians who did not but deserve to be represented in the U.S. Senate as well.

And that ultimately, what this is all about stands before us, even as we speak. It is about whether we are going to be the first generation of Americans to leave our children worse off than ourselves, or the next generation that allow them to inherit what they deserve, inherit what we inherited, give to them what every generation before us has given to the next, the single greatest nation in all of human history.

God bless you, thank you, and God bless America.
roger
 
  2  
Reply Fri 5 Nov, 2010 05:14 pm
@H2O MAN,
Thanks for posting that.

H2O MAN wrote:

But we know that tonight, the power in the United States House of Representatives will change hands. We know tonight that a growing number of Republicans will now serve in the Senate as well. And we make a grave mistake if we believe that tonight these results are somehow an embrace of the Republican Party.


He's right. The message congress should be receiving is that there are very few secrets in the world today. We are watching, and we vote.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 6 Nov, 2010 04:20 am



Great Right Hope
maxdancona
 
  3  
Reply Sat 6 Nov, 2010 08:50 am
@H2O MAN,
Quote:
Great Right Hope


That title is actually funny. I suspect that H20 Man might not know why.
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 6 Nov, 2010 04:52 pm
@maxdancona,
Funny, I suspect Max is a bigot and a racist.
0 Replies
 
 

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