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Absolute truth?

 
 
guigus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Apr, 2011 12:29 am
@JLNobody,
JLNobody wrote:

Decartes did not doubt everything. He retained a major tacit presupposition of his culture: i.e., that there is a SELF or agent of thought, perception and action, that self who, because HE (the self) thought, ergo necessarily exists (cogito ergo sum). Actually he only saw--in the sense of radical empiricism--thinking, not a self who was thinking. He THOUGHT there was a self/agent/ or subject of thought.
When I look I see thinking, seeing, therefore there is only thinking or seeing, not an agent of thought and perception--despite the fact that my grammar compels me to say to you here that "When 'I" look....
I AM experience, not the recepient of experience.


Methodological doubt, including that of Descartes, consists in trying to find reasons to doubt everything, so you eventually find something you cannot doubt. In the case of Descartes, that hopefully certain truth is "I think, I am" -- or "I think, therefore I am." If you are interested, I can show you even this is doubtful, despite Descartes believing it wasn't. Anyway, he also believed to have arrived at this certainty by first doubting everything he could, including that "the Sun supports all life" -- since he doubted both the Sun and life -- which was my point in the first place (so your "objection" just misses the point I was trying to make, hence derailing the discussion). In other words, he believed to have arrived at "I think, therefore I am" by trying to doubt it, along with anything else. Now tell me: what is the difference between trying to doubt something and doubting it?
0 Replies
 
guigus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Apr, 2011 12:48 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

The very experience itself is a receptacle...it takes shape and pattern !
The way you said it you correct a mistake with another one...


Cartesian "thinking" has a much broader meaning that it has in our scientific days: it means "believing," or "conceiving." To Descartes, the act of seeing something reduces itself to believing to see something. The experience of seeing something -- as a proper experience -- is to him doubtful: what he finds to be certain is the fact that I "think" I see something, even if an evil genius is tricking me that I see when I actually don't.

So, when JLNobody says "I AM experience, not the recepient of experience," he expresses a philosophical point of view alien to Descartes, to whom I am the conceiving of experience, even if experience itself -- as I conceive it -- is false.
justintruth
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Apr, 2011 07:06 am
@JLNobody,
But you are then not sure right? So in your mind there might be absolute truth. But no not even that because it might be true that absolute truth might be impossible. But then it might not. But can we really even be sure of that... so on and so on ad infinitum.

After you decouple from the radical skepticism and realize that it is always possible to be mistaken, you will find that the knowledge we do have, imperfect as it is, can be categorized as those things we know absolutely and those that we know contingently. In that sense there is absolute knowledge imperfect as it is and yes one can be mistaken about it. Still it is not based on observation. If we are right it is necessary. It could not be otherwise.

But then... I still might be wrong about that...Smile
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Apr, 2011 09:34 am
@guigus,
Guigus and Justintruth, my compliments on two intelligent and stimulating posts. I suppose all belief, and even experience, is CONTINGENT, and that reflects an undeniable fact: our human condition (including our physiological, historical, cultural and other situational factors).
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Apr, 2011 09:36 am
@JLNobody,
But more importantly, your unique subjective self.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Apr, 2011 09:38 am
@guigus,
What I am saying is that you don´t need to be conceiving anything on your own in order for you to be you...you are what you are, you are experience itself taking pattern and shape...what you do even if conditioned by something else does n´t make you less you...this is a discrete approach to the problem...the pattern in which the "effect " of "you" is assembled is valid as it goes ! Its there.
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Apr, 2011 10:51 am
@cicerone imposter,
C.I., romantic but true.
Correction: romantic AND true.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Apr, 2011 10:59 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil,
I think you misunderstand me when I say that I AM experience. I'm emphasizing that there is no agent of experience, because even the feeling that there is such an agent is only another experience, not a form of "objective" evidence for an ontological claim.
Experience is not an agent that is purposefully "taking" pattern and shape. But it is what life is--I guess this is a phenomenological position.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Apr, 2011 11:16 am
@JLNobody,
JLN You may be interested to know that Merleau-Ponty gives exactly that phemonological analysis backed by celebrated brain pathology cases.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Apr, 2011 11:59 am
@JLNobody,
JLNobody wrote:

Fil,
I think you misunderstand me when I say that I AM experience. I'm emphasizing that there is no agent of experience, because even the feeling that there is such an agent is only another experience, not a form of "objective" evidence for an ontological claim.
Experience is not an agent that is purposefully "taking" pattern and shape. But it is what life is--I guess this is a phenomenological position.


Well I am sorry to say so, but that amounts to say nothing...what form of objective evidence would we have to have then ? When you claim that something is not objective what does that mean ? Where rests the criteria for what should be really objective instead then ?

On agency I think I was clear enough when I mentioned the "you effect" on that regard, that in turn alone does n´t make it less of what it is...a organized pattern and shape. Nor do we need an exclusive "I" nor do we need that this "I" has agency on its own, only that such perception is actually experienced..."Experience" is just as good description as any other term that convey´s our state of being...and remember, in order to contradict something you need something else for reference. So far you failed to provide this "other reference" to oppose the normal usage of the terms in question...
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Apr, 2011 04:27 pm
@fresco,
Thanks, Fresco.
I vaguely recall reading an essay by Merleau-Ponty in a graduate seminar (given by the existentialist sociologist,Aaron Cicourel) in the early seventies. It's faded from memory now except for the recollection that he was a phenomenologist. I wish Merleau-Ponty would argue these points with Fil-Albuquerque. The latter's too deep for me.
0 Replies
 
guigus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 04:38 am
@justintruth,
justintruth wrote:

But you are then not sure right? So in your mind there might be absolute truth. But no not even that because it might be true that absolute truth might be impossible. But then it might not. But can we really even be sure of that... so on and so on ad infinitum.

After you decouple from the radical skepticism and realize that it is always possible to be mistaken, you will find that the knowledge we do have, imperfect as it is, can be categorized as those things we know absolutely and those that we know contingently. In that sense there is absolute knowledge imperfect as it is and yes one can be mistaken about it. Still it is not based on observation. If we are right it is necessary. It could not be otherwise.

But then... I still might be wrong about that...Smile



Absolute truth exists, but it is not what you expect it to be. Since the very idea of absolute truth negates itself, absolute truth must have in itself its own negation, and somehow transcend it. In other words, absolute truth is a truth that is capable of withstanding its own negation. It is not like you being unable to "decide" if it is true or false: it is true and false, and even so, always true.
guigus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 04:42 am
@JLNobody,
JLNobody wrote:

Guigus and Justintruth, my compliments on two intelligent and stimulating posts. I suppose all belief, and even experience, is CONTINGENT, and that reflects an undeniable fact: our human condition (including our physiological, historical, cultural and other situational factors).


But then your assertion that "all belief is contingent" must also be contingent, so perhaps not all belief is contingent.
guigus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 04:44 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

But more importantly, your unique subjective self.


Our unique, subjective self is just as important as anything else, and it is not that unique.
0 Replies
 
guigus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 04:47 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

What I am saying is that you don´t need to be conceiving anything on your own in order for you to be you...you are what you are, you are experience itself taking pattern and shape...what you do even if conditioned by something else does n´t make you less you...this is a discrete approach to the problem...the pattern in which the "effect " of "you" is assembled is valid as it goes ! Its there.


Not quite: that "pattern" is valid until it is no longer so, which can be anytime.
0 Replies
 
guigus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 04:51 am
@JLNobody,
JLNobody wrote:

Fil,
I think you misunderstand me when I say that I AM experience. I'm emphasizing that there is no agent of experience, because even the feeling that there is such an agent is only another experience, not a form of "objective" evidence for an ontological claim.
Experience is not an agent that is purposefully "taking" pattern and shape. But it is what life is--I guess this is a phenomenological position.


The very concept of experience demands both a subject and an object of experience: when I wake up in the morning, I experience the light of the sun -- which subjects me to that light, as the object of my experience. A subject-less experience would make my experience yours, as what makes my experience different from yours is not only the experienced object, but also its corresponding subject -- either one of us.
0 Replies
 
guigus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 05:09 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:
Experience" is just as good description as any other term that convey´s our state of being...


To someone other than you, your experience may well be a "state of being." To you, your experience is always your way of relating to whatever is not you -- this is how you, precisely, experience it. The only way for your experience to be a "state of being" to yourself would be if your soul could leave your body and observe it from the outside. Unfortunately, I suspect you are locked in your own body for life...
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 06:58 am
@guigus,
1 - Experience demands relation, subjects and objects are beyond the point, but I guess people can call it what they want...

2 - A state of being is know through experience and beyond that there´s nothing to be said...
Dasein
 
  2  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 08:46 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:
Well I am sorry to say so, but that amounts to say nothing...what form of objective evidence would we have to have then ? When you claim that something is not objective what does that mean ? Where rests the criteria for what should be really objective instead then ?
What if "objective evidence" is not a requirement? What if "objective evidence" is nothing more than a distraction?

Like you Fil, I have been a curious person my whole life (much to the chagrin of the people who live on this planet in close proximity to me – LOL). I can see now that my insatiable curiosity was only for me and not meant for anybody else. Early on I studied morphology (ectomorph, mesomorph, endomorph) and I became fascinated by the patterns in life. Somewhere along the 'path', I had an inkling of an idea that all of what I was looking at had something to do with the person doing the looking. I had a short relationship with psychology and then moved on to my love affair with philosophy.

I had a long relationship with philosophy, however, Kant, Descartes, and even Socrates and Plato weren't providing any answers to the question “Who am I?” so I put philosophy back on the shelf.

In 1995 I was drawn to Being and Time by Martin Heidegger. My intent here is to give you a sequence of events and not to promote Heidegger. Anyhow, I picked up Being and Time and attempted to read it. I read a paragraph or 2 and realized that I wasn't interested in what Heidegger had to say so I put the book on the shelf. I would walk past that black and white dust cover and my eyes would be drawn to it.

Eventually, around the 60th reading, I realized that there was no Martin Heidegger “over there” to be read. I realized that I am the conversation I'm having (which is contained in Being and Time). In the same instant I realized that there was no Kant, Descartes, Socrates, or Plato. That all there was, was the conversation that I was 'Be'-ing while reading Kant, Descartes, Socrates, Plato, and Heidegger. Looking back now and having re-read some of those authors, I can tell you that Kant, Descartes, and Plato stop short of thinking all the way through to the 'truth' and at that point they have created “subject/object”, “animal rationale”, etc. Those concepts give you enough to allow you to form a conclusion but they don't take you to the 'truth' of what they were thinking.

Around the 71st or 72nd reading I woke up one morning experiencing that I was not the same as I have always been (subsequently, I referred to the experience as a 'leap'). I realized that 'Be'-ing is not a measurable, definable thing and that the ground I stand on can only be defined by me. The attempt to uncover the answer to “Who am I?” by using the world to define who I am will never give you the answer to “Who am I?”. That answer comes from somewhere else. The 'cosmic joke' that has been played on us is that the subject/object world is a very real illusion with lots of evidence for it.

If you spend your life looking for “objective evidence” you will always have the 'insatiable thirst' to uncover the answer to “Who am I?”, but you'll never satisfy that thirst.

One last thing. You can argue for or against what I said here. Your arguing will not produce any results or satisfaction. The only thing that will produce satisfaction for you is 'taking' the numerous 'hints' in what I've said and doing the work for your 'self'. Arguing for or against will not magically undo the work I've done and it won't stop me from 'Be'-ing.
JPLosman0711
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 09:08 am
@Dasein,
"The 'cosmic joke' that has been played on us is that the subject/object world is a very real illusion with lots of evidence for it."

That was my favorite line.

 

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