25
   

Absolute truth?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 10:05 am
@JPLosman0711,
That's a good one! Kind of wraps up philosophy into one sentence.
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 10:43 am
@Dasein,
I appreciate your polite effort Dasein and respect your beliefs...be well !
My perspective on this matter does not stop Be-ing as it goes...in fact it ads to it... Wink
0 Replies
 
guigus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 07:45 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

1 - Experience demands relation, subjects and objects are beyond the point, but I guess people can call it what they want...


Relation between what and what else?

Fil Albuquerque wrote:
2 - A state of being is know through experience and beyond that there´s nothing to be said...


Which means that your external "state of being" (to others) corresponds to your internal experience (to yourself). These are two faces of your experience: to others, it is an external state of your being, while to you it is your experience, and you will never be able to reduce either one to the other.
guigus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 07:52 pm
@Dasein,
Dasein wrote:

Fil Albuquerque wrote:
Well I am sorry to say so, but that amounts to say nothing...what form of objective evidence would we have to have then ? When you claim that something is not objective what does that mean ? Where rests the criteria for what should be really objective instead then ?
What if "objective evidence" is not a requirement? What if "objective evidence" is nothing more than a distraction?

Like you Fil, I have been a curious person my whole life (much to the chagrin of the people who live on this planet in close proximity to me – LOL). I can see now that my insatiable curiosity was only for me and not meant for anybody else. Early on I studied morphology (ectomorph, mesomorph, endomorph) and I became fascinated by the patterns in life. Somewhere along the 'path', I had an inkling of an idea that all of what I was looking at had something to do with the person doing the looking. I had a short relationship with psychology and then moved on to my love affair with philosophy.

I had a long relationship with philosophy, however, Kant, Descartes, and even Socrates and Plato weren't providing any answers to the question “Who am I?” so I put philosophy back on the shelf.

In 1995 I was drawn to Being and Time by Martin Heidegger. My intent here is to give you a sequence of events and not to promote Heidegger. Anyhow, I picked up Being and Time and attempted to read it. I read a paragraph or 2 and realized that I wasn't interested in what Heidegger had to say so I put the book on the shelf. I would walk past that black and white dust cover and my eyes would be drawn to it.

Eventually, around the 60th reading, I realized that there was no Martin Heidegger “over there” to be read. I realized that I am the conversation I'm having (which is contained in Being and Time). In the same instant I realized that there was no Kant, Descartes, Socrates, or Plato. That all there was, was the conversation that I was 'Be'-ing while reading Kant, Descartes, Socrates, Plato, and Heidegger. Looking back now and having re-read some of those authors, I can tell you that Kant, Descartes, and Plato stop short of thinking all the way through to the 'truth' and at that point they have created “subject/object”, “animal rationale”, etc. Those concepts give you enough to allow you to form a conclusion but they don't take you to the 'truth' of what they were thinking.

Around the 71st or 72nd reading I woke up one morning experiencing that I was not the same as I have always been (subsequently, I referred to the experience as a 'leap'). I realized that 'Be'-ing is not a measurable, definable thing and that the ground I stand on can only be defined by me. The attempt to uncover the answer to “Who am I?” by using the world to define who I am will never give you the answer to “Who am I?”. That answer comes from somewhere else. The 'cosmic joke' that has been played on us is that the subject/object world is a very real illusion with lots of evidence for it.

If you spend your life looking for “objective evidence” you will always have the 'insatiable thirst' to uncover the answer to “Who am I?”, but you'll never satisfy that thirst.

One last thing. You can argue for or against what I said here. Your arguing will not produce any results or satisfaction. The only thing that will produce satisfaction for you is 'taking' the numerous 'hints' in what I've said and doing the work for your 'self'. Arguing for or against will not magically undo the work I've done and it won't stop me from 'Be'-ing.


What it wouldn't stop you from being is another matter entirely.
0 Replies
 
guigus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 07:55 pm
@JPLosman0711,
JPLosman0711 wrote:

"The 'cosmic joke' that has been played on us is that the subject/object world is a very real illusion with lots of evidence for it."

That was my favorite line.




The guy is not human. He needs no objectivity: he defines himself as he wishes. We cannot discuss with him, only pray to him. He eats no objective food as we know it, although I have no idea what he eats. The air he breathes has no oxygen, or at least not the objective one we know. He walks no floor, opens no doors, and of course, that "Being and Time" book he took his life reading is not made of paper. He's better than Christ, since even Christ needed objective water on which to walk.
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 08:04 pm
@guigus,
Guigus, I guess you've got me there. All generalizations are false including this one. Didn't Bertrand Russell deal with that problem?

But being contingent isn't necessarily the same as being false.
A trouble with our discussion, among others, is that we take what are our representations to ourselves of our primordial experience (e.g., sensations) as primordial experiences themselves. And argue about them. Isn't that what General Semantics decried back in the sixties?
I'm a bit fuzzy right now (merlot), so I await your corrections.
guigus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 08:08 pm
@JLNobody,
JLNobody wrote:

Guigus, I guess you've got me there. All generalizations are false including this one. Didn't Bertrand Russell deal with that problem?

But being contingent isn't necessarily the same as being false.
A trouble with our discussion, among others, is that we take what are our representations to ourselves of our primordial experience (e.g., sensations) as primordial experiences themselves. And argue about them. Isn't that what General Semantics decried back in the sixties?
I'm a bit fuzzy right now (merlot), so I await your corrections.


You are fuzzy because you are resisting contradictions. For example, you say that "all generalizations are false" without noticing you just made a generalization according to which that same generalization is false.

It is like the liar paradox: "right now, I am lying." Or (like you guessed) Russell's paradox, which consists in the set of all sets not containing themselves.

Absolute truth is not easy to find, but you can only find it by opening your mind to contradiction, then following it while taming you fear of getting fuzzy.
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 09:32 pm
@guigus,
guigus wrote:

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

1 - Experience demands relation, subjects and objects are beyond the point, but I guess people can call it what they want...


Relation between what and what else?

Fil Albuquerque wrote:
2 - A state of being is know through experience and beyond that there´s nothing to be said...


Which means that your external "state of being" (to others) corresponds to your internal experience (to yourself). These are two faces of your experience: to others, it is an external state of your being, while to you it is your experience, and you will never be able to reduce either one to the other.


1 - Relation itself defines the what and what in operational context, up to there you may just call them "things" or "meta-objects"... poli-functional that is, it very much depends on how they will relatively operate (remember the self rotating cube which turns to behave as a globe ?)... as also it depends from which perspective the "observation" is being systemically made, the function it serves, and the layer of complexity by which they integratedly operate...
...I personally don´t feel the need for subject object duality as I see the problem rather differently...to where I stand the term "observation" has a brother more abstract meaning in which the variance on the level and layer of relation brings awareness from its lowest possible state (a particle detecting another particle) up to the complexity of a human being, an ecosystem, or a metropolis...as I said is just one more form of relation between operators, it all comes down to functions...( how they are perceived is just yet another layer of functionality operating in another direction a bit like one more added dimension into the problem...)
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 10:28 pm
@Dasein,
Very well said, Dasein.

It doesn't look very much like language will ever be capable of rendering/representing Truth. Language just points at, and is alway a retrospective step away from Being, mired in a semantic subject-object dichotomy.

I like the Pyrrhonian approach to skepticism these days. Live according to direct experience and necessary inference. Leave the metaphysical speculation to others. Enjoy the ataraxia...
guigus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 11:37 pm
@FBM,
FBM wrote:

Very well said, Dasein.

It doesn't look very much like language will ever be capable of rendering/representing Truth.


Although absolute truth is beyond language, it is logical: it can be both rendered and represented -- in its logic. What you call "very well said" is just a bad joke.

FBM wrote:
Language just points at, and is alway a retrospective step away from Being, mired in a semantic subject-object dichotomy.


This is just a tentative transformation of truth into a metaphor: truth is a concept. You are trying to make language as a whole vanish by making the objective world vanish. But look back: it is the objective world coming to hit you!

FBM wrote:
I like the Pyrrhonian approach to skepticism these days. Live according to direct experience and necessary inference. Leave the metaphysical speculation to others. Enjoy the ataraxia...


You are both far removed from this planet, and "necessary inference" or "direct experience" is all you are missing. We'd better let you alone congratulating each other for such absolute alienation.
guigus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Apr, 2011 11:52 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

guigus wrote:

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

1 - Experience demands relation, subjects and objects are beyond the point, but I guess people can call it what they want...


Relation between what and what else?

Fil Albuquerque wrote:
2 - A state of being is know through experience and beyond that there´s nothing to be said...


Which means that your external "state of being" (to others) corresponds to your internal experience (to yourself). These are two faces of your experience: to others, it is an external state of your being, while to you it is your experience, and you will never be able to reduce either one to the other.


1 - Relation itself defines the what and what in operational context, up to there you may just call them "things" or "meta-objects"... poli-functional that is, it very much depends on how they will relatively operate (remember the self rotating cube which turns to behave as a globe ?)... as also it depends from which perspective the "observation" is being systemically made, the function it serves, and the layer of complexity by which they integratedly operate...
...I personally don´t feel the need for subject object duality as I see the problem rather differently...to where I stand the term "observation" has a brother more abstract meaning in which the variance on the level and layer of relation brings awareness from its lowest possible state (a particle detecting another particle) up to the complexity of a human being, an ecosystem, or a metropolis...as I said is just one more form of relation between operators, it all comes down to functions...( how they are perceived is just yet another layer of functionality operating in another direction a bit like one more added dimension into the problem...)


Which boils down to: relation between what and what else? Practical relations consist in answering this question.
0 Replies
 
guigus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2011 12:21 am
Absolute truth begins with recognizing that truth becomes its own falsity, which in turn becomes the truth its falsifies, just like in the liar paradox. And it proceeds with following the logical consequences of this variability. Those who believe that language can only provide metaphors of truth are precisely the ones most miserably enslaved to the unilateral notion of an immutable truth incapable of surviving its contrary: they are just afraid of contradiction, including that represented by other people -- which usually happens in the objective world.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2011 12:30 am
@guigus,
Laughing
guigus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2011 12:33 am
@FBM,
FBM wrote:

Laughing


You forgot your laughing machine on: it will run out of battery...
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2011 12:36 am
@guigus,
guigus wrote:

FBM wrote:

Laughing


You forgot your laughing machine on: it will run out of battery...


It's rechargeable. No worries... Wink
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2011 12:41 am
@guigus,
guigus wrote:

Absolute truth begins with recognizing that truth becomes its own falsity, which in turn becomes the truth its falsifies, just like in the liar paradox. And it proceeds with following the logical consequences of this variability. Those who believe that language can only provide metaphors of truth are precisely the ones most miserably enslaved to the unilateral notion of an immutable truth incapable of surviving its contrary: they are just afraid of contradiction, including that represented by other people -- which usually happens in the objective world.


You seem to be convinced of an immutable truth of your own, viz, that ALL those who believe language can only provide metaphors also believe in an immutable truth. Negating this would only require presenting a single example to the contrary...to wit... Arrow Cool
guigus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2011 12:42 am
@FBM,
FBM wrote:

guigus wrote:

FBM wrote:

Laughing


You forgot your laughing machine on: it will run out of battery...


It's rechargeable. No worries... Wink


Take care with your energy bill (there's always reason to worry, since the objective world never goes away).
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2011 12:48 am
@guigus,
By the way, do you actually know much about Pyrrhonian skepticism? A Pyrrhonian skeptic would disavow any metaphysical knowledge or belief. Not claiming to know that truth exists and also not claiming to know that it doesn't exist. Suspending judgment while keeping one's eyes and mind open for conclusive evidence...
guigus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2011 12:52 am
@FBM,
FBM wrote:

guigus wrote:

Absolute truth begins with recognizing that truth becomes its own falsity, which in turn becomes the truth its falsifies, just like in the liar paradox. And it proceeds with following the logical consequences of this variability. Those who believe that language can only provide metaphors of truth are precisely the ones most miserably enslaved to the unilateral notion of an immutable truth incapable of surviving its contrary: they are just afraid of contradiction, including that represented by other people -- which usually happens in the objective world.


You seem to be convinced of an immutable truth of your own, viz, that ALL those who believe language can only provide metaphors also believe in an immutable truth. Negating this would only require presenting a single example to the contrary...to wit... Arrow Cool


Absolute truth must be both mutable and immutable, since asserting either one leads to contradiction. So absolute truth is just a truth capable of becoming false while still being true. As for an example, once you find absolute truth, all existence becomes an example of it.
guigus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Apr, 2011 12:54 am
@FBM,
FBM wrote:

By the way, do you actually know much about Pyrrhonian skepticism? A Pyrrhonian skeptic would disavow any metaphysical knowledge or belief. Not claiming to know that truth exists and also not claiming to know that it doesn't exist. Suspending judgment while keeping one's eyes and mind open for conclusive evidence...


Don't you think that to judge any evidence as conclusive you will need your judgement? Or, to put it another way: how will you know when to stop suspending your judgement without it?
 

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