0
   

children deprived of philosophy

 
 
55hikky
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 06:51 am
@HexHammer,
HexHammer wrote:

my name is HexHammer. I am smrt!


wouldn't want to make you a liar.
the things i do for you out of respect is amazing...

please stop wasting our time. Thanks
-55hikky
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 07:58 am
@55hikky,
55hikky wrote:

HexHammer wrote:

my name is HexHammer. I am smrt!


wouldn't want to make you a liar.
the things i do for you out of respect is amazing...

please stop wasting our time. Thanks
-55hikky
I have just reported you for falsly quoting me on purpose.
55hikky
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 09:03 am
@HexHammer,
lol ...k
almighty hexhammer
what will i do now...

are you freaking serious???
like you really did that...

cuz i was going to do that about you...
for polluting my discussion by posting a "reply" that is completely irrelevant to the topic... but i gave you the benefit of the doubt, cuz as much as everything you say is... "very striking"... you actually sometimes say okay things that kinda makes sense if we have a open mind...

and i did this for you too... how could you do something like this to me hex!?
i thought we were more than that!!
the things we've done together... was all that a lie???
all those times you said you loved me... *sniff sniff*...
how could you
my life is over now...

lol you reported me... omg

o...m...g...

SERIOUSLY
you reported me??? wow...gezus kryst
i guess i should of known =\
lol

btw
it's "falsely" (falsly)
"rhetorical masturbation" (rethorical mastubation)
"premises" (premesis )
"tried " (tryed )
"Gandhi" (Ghandi )
"firing" (fireing )
"occasions" (occations )
"meddling" (meddeling )
"opinions" (oppinions)
"necessary" (nessesary)
"believe" (belive)
"doctrines" (doctirns)
"hemorrhage" (hemorage)
(these are only from this ONE discussion, i can't even begin to imagine how much embarrassment you go through in your collective posts all over the topics.)

I am the ONLY ONE in this entire forum who actually gives you any credit, and speak to you as a human being. i didn't actually shoot you down like Cyracuz in "What makes a human being civilized"
i guess using your terms you'd say that you went through "rethorical raype".
you have flawed rhetoric and invalid arguments, unnecessary insults, enthralled fixation on wikipedia facts and most importantly no voice.
(if you would like i will "appropriately quote you" on examples of above, unless you delete all of your replies, but u won't cuz you take this forum seriously and it matters.)

sigh... w/e
i hope you get ur ways...
i'm just venting i guess.
thanks for the stimulation.

-55hikky
0 Replies
 
55hikky
 
  0  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 09:08 am
@HexHammer,
well, i do like your spirit of trying to uphold the nature of the forum.
you always make sure to give me a thumbs down, and you follow the rules. good for you really.

i guess i just don't care enough. everyone in this discussion was pretty much against me, but i made sure i gave everyone a thumbs up.
I think you're taking this forum a tiiiny bit TOO seriously, and i'm not so sure if extremes in either spectrum is healthy both for you and anyone who encounters you..

-55hikky

i can't believe i'm still trying to give you credit and hope...
HexHammer
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 09:31 am
@55hikky,
Please keep me out of your selfrighteous puerile psycotic ramblings.
55hikky
 
  0  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 09:33 am
@HexHammer,
-_-...k
and it's not psychotic when it makes sense... u really need to know what ur words mean when you are in a philosophy based discussion website.

Words have to have exact meaning in order to convey the right idea. When words are perverted or used carelessly, without understanding the full implications of them, like the word "selfless", then we as people end up creating a whole vocabulary that has no meaning grounded in objective reality. Then everything is subjective, and the learning goes out the window, and down the drain. some use words carelessly, and some use them deliberately, to create the unnecessary chaos in the minds of the individuals, as the one we are trying to untangle.

-55hikky
55hikky
 
  0  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 10:08 am
@HexHammer,
HexHammer wrote:

Please keep me out of your selfrighteous puerile psycotic ramblings.


I am willing to be called this by you, and everyone that sees the prior post to show you what you can improve on... I was merely trying to help you in my own way...

-55hikky
0 Replies
 
HexHammer
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 10:09 am
@55hikky,
55hikky wrote:

-_-...k
and it's not psychotic when it makes sense... u really need to know what ur words mean when you are in a philosophy based discussion website.

Words have to have exact meaning in order to convey the right idea. When words are perverted or used carelessly, without understanding the full implications of them, like the word "selfless", then we as people end up creating a whole vocabulary that has no meaning grounded in objective reality. Then everything is subjective, and the learning goes out the window, and down the drain. some use words carelessly, and some use them deliberately, to create the unnecessary chaos in the minds of the individuals, as the one we are trying to untangle.

-55hikky
As I said ..plz spare me your selfrighteousness, you just can't stop, can't ya?
0 Replies
 
littlek
 
  3  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 04:16 pm
Quote:
what do YOU suggest we do?
i see one was that your school attempted to decrease the amount of homework.
whatelse would you suggest,
1. within realistic parameters, and
2. theory/idealistic/wishful thinking as a teacher (i.e.... $1billion dollars to schools everyday... i don't know..)


What would I do? This question you brought up interests me not on the behalf of philosophy so much as on the behalf of a more well-rounded education with less stress.

I spoke with a scientist friend from China. She is in the field of biology. When I told her my 13 year old students were learning words like 'cardiac', 'ventricle', 'cellular respiration' and sometime the entire compliment of 200 bones in the human body she thought that was insane. What? I thought American students were behind every other student group in the world!?! I brought up this apparent discrepancy with a co-worker. She had a similar story about German exchange students who were surprised about the level of some aspects of our educational system (though I met German students of a younger age who were more advanced and therefor bored). Our conversation then turned to amount of time in school. She concluded that Americans spend less time in school, and in other cultures students spend more time in school. Maybe if we had longer days, we could include philosophy?
roger
 
  2  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 04:41 pm
@littlek,
I could point out that your state and your area in particular has one of the higher ranked school systems in the country, possibly related to the number of ranked colleges within driving distance. NM is way down, but staff of Los Alamos National Labs is probably quite demanding of the town's school system of the same name.

I can see philosophy being added if time can be found or created for it. I don't see it displacing anything. It wouldn't even have to be called philosophy. It's all very well to sharpen thinking skills, but they are still going to have to have something to apply the skills to.

I could even go for a semester of philosophy and a semester of rhetoric, at some point.
55hikky
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 12:52 pm
@littlek,
What would I do? This question you brought up interests me not on the behalf of philosophy so much as on the behalf of a more well-rounded education with less stress.

I spoke with a scientist friend from China. She is in the field of biology. When I told her my 13 year old students were learning words like 'cardiac', 'ventricle', 'cellular respiration' and sometime the entire compliment of 200 bones in the human body she thought that was insane. What? I thought American students were behind every other student group in the world!?! I brought up this apparent discrepancy with a co-worker. She had a similar story about German exchange students who were surprised about the level of some aspects of our educational system (though I met German students of a younger age who were more advanced and therefor bored). Our conversation then turned to amount of time in school. She concluded that Americans spend less time in school, and in other cultures students spend more time in school. Maybe if we had longer days, we could include philosophy?
[/quote]

I noticed this too, but
i don't know what to do about it

the reason this is is, as i speculate, is due to diversity.
Here is my reasoning. I have personally experienced both worlds. I am Japanese, and I was sent to Japanese school for 13 years. Not a school to teach japanese, a school where they teach math, Social studies, history, biology, chemistry, national language, etc. in japanese. It was a school FOR japanese children FROM japan using their equivalent text books. now you would know what happens. I acquire high school level math by 4th grade and i only went once a week!!! (It felt great when you can completely understand algebra and trigonometry when kids around you barely know multiplication. i was bored, as the german exchange student; i was always docked points for doing all the questions in my head and never showing work... yes, i was penalized for being smart, THIS is riddddiculous. and on this note, it is ABSOLUTELY STUPID how americans REQUIRE to show work in math, i was 10 fold smarter in math and was never REQIRED to show work in japanese school. i refused to show work (american standards) because i was not required to do so in japanese school (clearly a superior system) and i did not care for the "points" that i lost in homework. i guess this was my first exposure to feeling the incompetence in education system; i just couldn't materialize it or be explicitly aware of this phenomenon at the age... i remember being so furious at this rule. they think it helps us to show work; theory, tradition, culture. i know we don't, experience.) and as you said, this is consistent with EVERY other first and second world country. why?
2 solutions.

...one...
they all have the same values, and the same language.
here, 1. not everyone can speak english, but still go to school.
2. we have every culture here in America who bring their own values and some are not too interested in putting as much time into school as others. We can't ignore these kids! so we have to bring down the national level of education...
This is the reason i originally did not want to implement a 'philosophy class' to schools. there's no time and not enough people would WANT to take it.

but second
they are more focused.
the reason i was able to internalize trig and algebra by age of 8 wasn't because of wonderful teachers or school system. it was dedication and focus.
i did all of the school work and homework of my american school as well as all the school and homework of japanese school. and looking only at the curricula of math, i just did more of it. I know in japan, it is suggested to attend another additional education institution where they give out their own homework. and of course, EVERYONE goes because the level of standards are celestial in respect to America's...


in conclusion:
the first reason made me not want to implement a 'philosophy class' to schools. But frankly, i see no other way to improve the children. I thought it would actually be catalystic, how wonderful would it be if we can teach children how to think and as a result, and lead them to take education more seriously. sort of a unified pseudo-culture or pseudo-values that not only brings people of america together as human beings beyond cultural borders, but as a result enhance all potential for every children of all ethnic backgrounds.

things like math, chem, bio is easy to children, everything that can be taught by (american) high school can be finished by middle school, as the world approves. so it would be nice if we can hold off on philosophy until after middle school when they are supposed to be done according to psychologists. but i guess we don't do this, so we'll do it differently because we are different. and the fact that we don't have a different education system than the rest of the world is sad knowing this reality.

-55hikky
0 Replies
 
55hikky
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 01:13 pm
@roger,
roger wrote:

I could point out that your state and your area in particular has one of the higher ranked school systems in the country, possibly related to the number of ranked colleges within driving distance. NM is way down, but staff of Los Alamos National Labs is probably quite demanding of the town's school system of the same name.

I can see philosophy being added if time can be found or created for it. I don't see it displacing anything. It wouldn't even have to be called philosophy. It's all very well to sharpen thinking skills, but they are still going to have to have something to apply the skills to.

I could even go for a semester of philosophy and a semester of rhetoric, at some point.


IF america can find SOME system that will bring the children to take education more seriously it can do the most good for the world, as i believe. And clearly, the current one is pathetic as it is becoming more apparent with everyday.
the reason for this, by relating to your example of "having one of the higher ranked schools" is that there are SOME smart people, but it's just too diluted.
lets say california has 30,000 students which received a A "global standardized exam" (whatever that could be -_-) and only 7,000 from... say germany (or whereever) received A's in the same exam.
well that SEEMS great for Americans! except for the fact that there is probably 100,000x more people in america than germany, which means 3 out of 1,000,000 got an A in america while 7/10 received an A in germany...
sure we have some of the highest standards, but that's just because we have $h!t-ton of more people so obviously SOME will be successful... i want more people to be more successful rather than a system which reflects our culture; few grow exponentially, majority fails.

-55hikky
0 Replies
 
55hikky
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 01:14 pm
@roger,
roger wrote:
It's all very well to sharpen thinking skills, but they are still going to have to have something to apply the skills to.


what do you mean?
0 Replies
 
55hikky
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 01:33 pm
warning;
LONG POST
ok, this is specifically for those who care

This is an excerpt from another, similar, discussion I have elsewhere.
here, unlike this discussion, is not about "is it a good idea" and i have to fight for this notion, but "what is the best" and everyone agrees with me.

The below are NOT MY OPINION but another being's that i will withhold the name of.

---------------------------
well, what some of these thinker say may sound very funny to me, ( what they say about incapabilities of children to understand or whatever) because how otherwise they would explain a present situation in schools where we observe total implementation of moral, behaivorial ideas in pupils's minds .
It doesn't mean we invent special lessons to teach children moral issues, what is done in schools is much more effective , it's ideas put in practice, children are taught obedience and conformity and other "profitable" for society ideas not in theoretical way just by listening concepts about it during one lesson a week, but the whole system is based on it, children learn this "ethic" each and every day during their whole school life... isn't it so?

and we even don't need any proof of how good children are in "learning" that stuff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nPlSm7MsRI

but concerning a fact if children are capable of learning morals and so on on a theoretical basis , there is one documentary , it proves they can

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=armP8TfS9Is

only we have to think in what form to present it for them if we are talking about very young children, surely not the way as we would do it for older people filled with numerous definitions and complicated , 100-pages long explications... ( it's even not good for older people Smile)
-----------------------
as for me, I think children are disposed to moral ( ethical) issues from the very beginning of school education ( if it hasn't been like that, what point , what sense school education would have had for authorities ?coz they have very clear agenda).

and as for for example literature classes, when children study ( read)one play or novel aren't they supposed to discuss protagonists, how they interact with each other, what characters they have and so on. It means they are supposed to make judgments, about "bad guys and good guys".

Even earlier, when they are preschoolers, in kindergartens isn't it like that? if there is sort of a"class" in a kindergarten, then an educator usually follows a plan of showing what is good and what is bad, what children should do and should not.

now about suggestions:
in a documentary about japanese school "children full of life" I found a teacher actually works on morality issue very much, his idea of sharing everyday life experiences of each children with the rest of a class members is not bad and it makes children aware of how we react on common human's issues such as joy , sorrow,fears, etc. Here it doesn't matter how good you are in math or history or whatever, this human qualities ( emotions) unite everybody.

may be I'd say children could share their everyday experiences with each other, so that the rest of a class could participate , so that they could freely share what they really think on a subject, if it is a life problem they could make some suggestions on how to resolve it and so on and during this process they will learn other stuff too.The important thing is that what they share should be a real life situation and may be better if it was a present situation what happen to them now, not years ago or months, because emotions from a present-day situations, questions are more strong then from the past. I agree that it is possible to learn a little bit on examples from books, other people's but nothing can replace reality and lessons we learn from real life are much more powerful for us, the "lesson" we learn from one particular situation has in times more intensive impact on us than anything else.
as Einstein said :"we get knowledge through experience, everything else is only information."
may be if it was possible in this class could participate children from different grades, so to say mixed-aged class as it could give opportunities to share different points of views...
------------------------------
you know it came to my mind as I was watching a video about Sudbury Valley school, children were talking about classes in this school, how they are organized, who attend them. and what struck me, in this school there is no age limit as to attending whatever class you want.And when they were talking about philosophy class they said that even little children were on this class ( you see, they attend these classes just because they like it!!!)

and I thought may be it's a good idea to inquire at this school what do they do on their philosophy classes, what they talk about, how they present material....since these classes are so popular in the school.but we have to think that the school has many branches, so , may be at one branch these classes are popular and in others are not as the school is based on democratic principles and children decide what they want to study ...Smile

another suggestion is to make animations of what will be presented on a philosophy class like what was made for popularization of myths and other stuff.it's more passive activity I think but it could be interesting to watch animation , cartoon, etc

or like in medieval times there were disputes( discussions) about one particular philosophical subject, so it also could have worked in classes,like game but should be considered carefully since it could turn out to be boring if children are not interested enough in what they discuss. But who knows, I'd ask children if they were interested in such sort of activity , well, actually it can be made without asking, just by mentioning an idea of it, one sees if they are enthusiastic about it or not.

well, if something more comes to my mind I'll let you know;)
0 Replies
 
north
 
  2  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 07:35 pm
@55hikky,
55hikky wrote:

Why is it that we do not teach the importance of communication, society, rationality, values and ethics to children?

They may be too young to understand some complex concepts of value, logic, aesthetics, metaphysics, epistemology but facts such as,

"why we have a society, and not anarchy."

can be told to them so they would have a better understanding of why rules exist and why not to break them, rather than doing something bad is followed by either a "no no" or a "biiig no no (with a spanking)" from your parents. Just being told that, "or else you're going to go to jail" really isn't a convincing reason to follow the rules set by some sentient beings from wherever no matter what age you are at for a rational being of any appreciable level of cognitive capacity we would like ourselves to be known to possess.

we are forced to take western civilization, economics, asian history, american history, plate tectonics, calculus; things most people never use in their life, yet something like history is taught over and over and over, even though none of them is absorbed by children because it's just not applicable to life (not at the age they are unless the teachers and professors are very talented in keeping children engaged during the lecture). why can't there be one class that gives a chance to see a small portion of reality and answer the common question of why and how.

i'm not a parent, but is this a flawed idea? do you think we should, or shouldn't?
Do we fear the possibility that children will rebel uncontrollably and lead to a era of chaos and rebellion if we teach children reality and how to see the world as is, and think for themselves without committing blindly to systems, tradition, custom...?


children are simply NOT mature enough to be exposed to philosophy and quite frankly neither are many older people

55hikky
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Sep, 2010 11:48 pm
@north,
north wrote:

children are simply NOT mature enough to be exposed to philosophy and quite frankly neither are many older people

thank you for your contribution to this topic.
-55hikky
0 Replies
 
55hikky
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 01:52 pm
@north,
north wrote:

children are simply NOT mature enough to be exposed to philosophy

1. what is it that your children said or did that lead to this proposition?
2. what were you doing during your childhood that leads to this proposition?
3. what is it that you would propose to change in today's education system?
4. if you are to change it, why do you think this change wasn't necessary before (what in society changed that makes you think that this change in education system is necessary)?
north wrote:

and quite frankly neither are many older people

1. what form of philosophy are you talking about that older people can not understand?
2. is this for all or a given group of adults?
3. what would you suggest should be done differently in society/school/parenting that would prevent children from becoming these "adults that can not do philosophy"?
4. do you think philosophy is important in children, in adults?
5. what kind of philosophy would be age appropriate?

any other information you would like to share with us to further understand your point of view would be great.

-55hikky
0 Replies
 
jgweed
 
  2  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 09:16 pm
It seems that part of the debate in this thread is that everyone is using "philosophy" to mean many different things from a very stringent definition to a very casual one.

A famous philosopher once wrote something to the effect that "philosophy is a disturber of the peace" and this seems generally true for several reasons. First, its thinking very often challenges received opinions, what "everyone thinks," or at least subjects them to careful interrogation. Second, philosophical thinking often changes the person doing the thinking, whether by enlarging his perspectives or providing critical tools he might otherwise not have.

In this sense, I would suspect that most people would want THIS kind of philosophy taught, at an appropriate level and not necessarily as an independent subject, at school. The ability to think independently and objectively, and the desire (or at least the recognised imperative) to do so, seems critical to the education of any human being.
roger
 
  2  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 09:47 pm
@jgweed,
At last. Something I can't disagree with.
0 Replies
 
55hikky
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 11:02 pm
@jgweed,
jgweed wrote:

The ability to think independently and objectively, and the desire (or at least the recognised imperative) to do so, seems critical to the education of any human being.


do the children receive this "critical" education?
if no, what do we need to change?
if yes, what characteristic(s) of teachers, or characteristic(s) of education system, or anything else in society that highlights this ability in children?
 

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